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| Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... |    |
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Ashenvale
A Mere Peasant
Age : 29
Joined : 08 Dec 2007
Posts : 2210
|  Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum...  Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:54 pm | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | | Quote: | If there's anyone on this board who considers themselves neither Conservative or Liberal.. who accepts and rejects ideologies based on his own logic and studied conclusions, and doesn't just follow the sheep of the red or blue farmers flock ..please raise your smiley's hand! 
This will probably just be me...but who knows.
|
Just to clarify, are you referring to this propaganda, or something else? |
Sure, why not. All propaganda gets old if not given in moderation. You're overkill with yours, thats all I am saying. 
Way way overkilllllllling itttt.
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|  | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 834
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:21 am | |
| | Quote: | | I throw you facts and all you throw me back is insults. |
Perhaps it is because his vantage point is one that cannot be articulately defended.
You see, he supports John McCain, and so far as I can tell, it all comes down to two relatively insignificant reasons:
(1) His party affiliation, and (2) the media hype that has been prodding his campaign along.
But beyond these these things, there is no one out there who can propose even one substantive reason to vote for the guy.
And so, rather than highlight this embarrassing fact, the strategy is to confuse the issue and attack anyone who refuses to fall in line behind John McCain.
Personally, I do not understand the logic behind such behavior.
I am also confused as to why some folks advance their views as being "open-minded", and yet they harbor an attitude of close-mindedness that is so palpable that you could cut it with a knife. I have always found this to be a strange idiosyncrasy. But I digress.
I would like to ask: Shouldn't we all be in favor of substantive dialogue?
And isn't that the central purpose of this forum?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Joe |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 834
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:30 am | |
| | Quote: | Sure, why not. All propaganda gets old if not given in moderation. You're overkill with yours, thats all I am saying.
Way way overkilllllllling itttt. |
And just to clarify once again, what is your definition of overkill?
VALEDICTION
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 654
Ashenvale
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1709 |
| | | | 5minutes
Joined : 07 Nov 2007
Posts : 2021
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:56 am | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | | Quote: | | I throw you facts and all you throw me back is insults. |
Perhaps it is because his vantage point is one that cannot be articulately defended. |
And yet, I've defended it tooth and nail - and whoomped you repeatedly.
| Quote: | You see, he supports John McCain, and so far as I can tell, it all comes down to two relatively insignificant reasons:
(1) His party affiliation, and (2) the media hype that has been prodding his campaign along. |
I support McCain because he's the best of the 3 viable candidates. Them reading comprehension skills are just crankin' right along, aren't they Vally?
| Quote: | | But beyond these these things, there is no one out there who can propose even one substantive reason to vote for the guy. |
"He's a right-leaning moderate who's a better choice than a classic liberal and absolute socialist, and only a blind, drooling, window-licking, mouth-breathing retard would be incapable of seeing the difference". How's that for a reason?
| Quote: | | Personally, I do not understand the logic behind such behavior. |
That's because you don't understand logic. You also apparently don't read, either.
| Quote: | | I would like to ask: Shouldn't we all be in favor of substantive dialogue? |
You mean like "VOTE FOR ALAN KEYES HE IS TEH ROXOR AND HE'S NOT JOHN MCCAIN!!! LOL!!!!" That kind of substantive dialogue?
Let me make it clear again, Joseph:
1. There are 3 viable candidates.
2. The best candidate is John McCain.
3. Third-party votes steal votes away from viable candidates.
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| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:00 am | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | | Quote: | | I throw you facts and all you throw me back is insults. |
Perhaps it is because his vantage point is one that cannot be articulately defended.
You see, he supports John McCain, and so far as I can tell, it all comes down to two relatively insignificant reasons:
(1) His party affiliation, and (2) the media hype that has been prodding his campaign along.
But beyond these these things, there is no one out there who can propose even one substantive reason to vote for the guy.
And so, rather than highlight this embarrassing fact, the strategy is to confuse the issue and attack anyone who refuses to fall in line behind John McCain.
Personally, I do not understand the logic behind such behavior.
I am also confused as to why some folks advance their views as being "open-minded", and yet they harbor an attitude of close-mindedness that is so palpable that you could cut it with a knife. I have always found this to be a strange idiosyncrasy. But I digress.
I would like to ask: Shouldn't we all be in favor of substantive dialogue?
And isn't that the central purpose of this forum?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Joe |
Very true sir. Yes, I get a little venomous at times, and it does put people on the defensive, but I do my best not to insult anyone personally. And this is not personal...it's politics. I've had worse arguments with my best friend and we always come out OK (Hi, Keith! I may disagree with you but you're still mah homey, dog!)
But I digress...I honestly think people like 5 can't handle it when we show them the fallicy of his position. We are accused of not having our own minds...excuse me? Who are the ones voting principle over party? That is voting with your own mind. It does not matter a d*mn if you vote for the guy who loses...you used your own mind. As I said a MILLION times before, anyone who honestly believes McCain is the best...is...newsflash...not the type of voter we are railing against! We are railing against people who are voting just to keep the other guy/gal out. That's voting for all the wrong reasons. All anyone needs to do is look through history and see how voting in that manner leads society on a road to ruin.
We reinforce our points with common sense arguments from respected conservative pundits like Pat Buchanan, Mychal Massie and others...and they are ignored. I guess some Republicans can't forgive Buchanan for running against Bush 41 in '92 and Bush 43 in '00. You see, if you are against the war or the Patriot Act or unlimited free trade...you're a liberal in their eyes. Doesn't matter that Buchanan is a leading authority on conservatism...he's a liberal because he doesn't tow the party line. What poppycock!
Honestly, Val, I think we handed 5 his hat and he's ashamed to admit it. Reminds me of Nero fiddling while Rome burns. Let him keep fiddling while the Republican Party burns around him...we'll continue onward no matter what anyone thinks.
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| | | | 5minutes
Joined : 07 Nov 2007
Posts : 2021
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:15 am | |
| | Quote: | | I do my best not to insult anyone personally |
So all that "you're a talking points memo" and "you call yourself a Christian" stuff was what, exactly? Being chummy?
| Quote: | | I honestly think people like 5 can't handle it when we show them the fallicy of his position. |
Oddly, I've gone through great lengths to show you the problem with voting for third parties. What you call "fallacy", I call coming to terms with reality.
| Quote: | | anyone who honestly believes McCain is the best...is...newsflash...not the type of voter we are railing against |
So.... what? You're rallying against people who don't think he's the best, but who think he's the best of the available viable options?
| Quote: | | We reinforce our points with common sense arguments from respected conservative pundits like Pat Buchanan, Mychal Massie and others...and they are ignored. |
That's because they aren't common sense. They're extremist populist political opportunists.
| Quote: | | I guess some Republicans can't forgive Buchanan for running against Bush 41 in '92 |
I supported Buchanan in 92.
| Quote: | | and Bush 43 in '00. |
I'm glad he ran. It gave old people in Florida someone to vote for besides Gore on their butterfly ballots.
| Quote: | | You see, if you are against the war or the Patriot Act or unlimited free trade...you're a liberal in their eyes. |
No, you're just silly. Not liberal. Of course, it doesn't help that your beliefs just happen to line up with the talking points memos of the Democrats and assorted socialists of the world, either.
| Quote: | | Doesn't matter that Buchanan is a leading authority on conservatism... |
He's not a leading authority on anything. He's a has-been who couldn't muster the support of his own party in 92 and has been bitter ever since, shifting sides to join up with the Perot brigade.
| Quote: | | Honestly, Val, I think we handed 5 his hat and he's ashamed to admit it. |
What a marvelous fantasy you live in. I wish Earth was like that. Again, here's the argument that I've repeated several times before that you have yet to have actually responded to before you went off on your little "don't you dare insult me" whinefest:
1. There are 3 viable candidates.
2. John McCain is the best choice of the viable candidates.
3. Third party votes will take votes away from viable candidates like John McCain.
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"There's no virtue in having an opinion, especially if it's wrong."
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"I respect the right of lawful gun owners to hunt, fish, protect their families."
- Barack Hussein Obama
"9/11 Was An Outside Job."
-Counter-Protester at Berkley |
| | | | scottmitchell74
Age : 34
Joined : 06 Mar 2007
Posts : 2689
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:39 am | |
| | Quote: | And just to clarify once again, what is your definition of overkill?
VALEDICTION
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 654
Ashenvale
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1709 |
Touche!!!
Too much popcorn upsets my stomach.
DMCM has my favorite posts so far! ...ooops, I mean 
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| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:17 am | |
| | 5minutes wrote: | | Quote: | | I do my best not to insult anyone personally |
So all that "you're a talking points memo" and "you call yourself a Christian" stuff was what, exactly? Being chummy?
| Quote: | | I honestly think people like 5 can't handle it when we show them the fallicy of his position. |
Oddly, I've gone through great lengths to show you the problem with voting for third parties. What you call "fallacy", I call coming to terms with reality.
| Quote: | | anyone who honestly believes McCain is the best...is...newsflash...not the type of voter we are railing against |
So.... what? You're rallying against people who don't think he's the best, but who think he's the best of the available viable options?
| Quote: | | We reinforce our points with common sense arguments from respected conservative pundits like Pat Buchanan, Mychal Massie and others...and they are ignored. |
That's because they aren't common sense. They're extremist populist political opportunists.
| Quote: | | I guess some Republicans can't forgive Buchanan for running against Bush 41 in '92 |
I supported Buchanan in 92.
| Quote: | | and Bush 43 in '00. |
I'm glad he ran. It gave old people in Florida someone to vote for besides Gore on their butterfly ballots.
| Quote: | | You see, if you are against the war or the Patriot Act or unlimited free trade...you're a liberal in their eyes. |
No, you're just silly. Not liberal. Of course, it doesn't help that your beliefs just happen to line up with the talking points memos of the Democrats and assorted socialists of the world, either.
| Quote: | | Doesn't matter that Buchanan is a leading authority on conservatism... |
He's not a leading authority on anything. He's a has-been who couldn't muster the support of his own party in 92 and has been bitter ever since, shifting sides to join up with the Perot brigade.
| Quote: | | Honestly, Val, I think we handed 5 his hat and he's ashamed to admit it. |
What a marvelous fantasy you live in. I wish Earth was like that. Again, here's the argument that I've repeated several times before that you have yet to have actually responded to before you went off on your little "don't you dare insult me" whinefest:
1. There are 3 viable candidates.
2. John McCain is the best choice of the viable candidates.
3. Third party votes will take votes away from viable candidates like John McCain. |
I only started busting your chops after you were insulting my intellingence...that really makes me mad. You can disagree with me 50 ways until Tuesday, but if you insult my intelligence you get on my sh*t list. Maybe if you stop insulting my intelligence I'll soften my tone! Fair enough? I think so.
Now, since I'm not going to be someone who stays inside the mainstream (especially since the mainstream lost its wheels a long time ago), realise that what the Republican Party is calling "conservative views" are not conservative at all. The reason I use the term neoconservative is to describe so called "conservative principles" brought over to the Republican Party by classical liberals a long time ago who dissapointed the Democratic party did not embrace them anymore. I personally cannot help it if the New Left movement has taken some conservative principles and trumpets them as their own. True conservatism believes in isolationism, small government, individual liberty, personal freedom, and putting America first. Neoconservatives like Kristol and Wolfowitz have stolen the conservative mantra under a false moniker (New World Order) and we want the title of "conservative" back because Wolfowitz and Kristol are not conservative.
Now, onto your little conundrum that you point out:
1. There are 3 viable candidates: No, there are 4. Well, there would be if the drive-bys would'nt want to make love to Hill, Obama and McCain so much. Liberals will LOVE this election!
2. John McCain is the best choice of the viable candidates. Compared to Obama and Hillary, yes, but Keyes is the most conservative candidate since Reagan, and if idiots like Hannity and Limbaugh would realize that he would have a snowball's chance in hell at least. But no! One phone call, one endorsement from Nancy Reagan or George H.W. Bush, silences them and they decide to play ball...ignoring the only candidate that is even in the ballpark with their beliefs. If every conservative in this country would rally behind Keyes, the ONLY true conservative in the race, he would win handily.
3. Third party votes will take votes away from viable candidates like John McCain. Good. But you know what, they will also take votes away from Hillary/Obama as well! But as I said before, if there are enough PO'ed conservatives like me who want to return to the Reagan years, Keyes might actually take away enough votes from any of the 3 candidates to at least not give the winner a mandate (in other words, winning with less than 50 % of the vote).
Hope that helps you understand how I feel. I do feel that many conservative voters are scared enough by a Hillary/Obama presidency that they vote for McCain out of fear of that liberal boogeyman under the bed. Be honest, you are scared too! You have proved it to me time and time and time again. You cannot convince me otherwise!
But hey...STOP WORRYING! Once again, I will be realistic. Because of all the conservative Americans scared out of their wits by the prospect of a return of Billary to the White House, or a black extremist like Obama setting up shop...McCain will win in a landslide! The (your term, not my term) grass roots extremist populists like myself will lick our wounds and get on with our lives. You'll never get rid of us. Get used to it!
Now, if you would stop insulting my intelligence please. I am a 31 year old devout Christian who loves heavy metal, likes to follow politics, and has a lovely wife and a 1 month old daughter at home. I want what I feel is best for my wife and child. My wife is voting for Keyes too. If you insult her you have sunk to a new low. So, stop assasinating my character just because I outed your true intentions and exposed you for what you are. I don't hate you.
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| | | | Ashenvale
A Mere Peasant
Age : 29
Joined : 08 Dec 2007
Posts : 2210
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:19 am | |
| | scottmitchell74 wrote: | | Quote: | And just to clarify once again, what is your definition of overkill?
VALEDICTION
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 654
Ashenvale
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1709 |
Touche!!!
Too much popcorn upsets my stomach.
DMCM has my favorite posts so far! ...ooops, I mean |
Same problem with popcorn...
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| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:24 am | |
| Ever since I started working where I am, I can't stand popcorn anymore. People make it in the microwave all the time and it smells horrible.
Now that I have gotten all my frustrations and agressions out, and may have hurt some feelings (which I ask God's forgiveness for), I'll plainly state why I am not voting for McCain.
1. He supports the guest worker program and is soft on illegal immigration.
2. He is not 100 percent pro-life. He tries to make everyone happy with his answers. With me, it's 100 percent or no vote.
3. Anyone who likes the 2nd Amendment should realise that McCain's pro second amendment record gets an "F" from the Gun Owners of America.
4. He supports NAFTA and the WTO, which destroys our economy and has millions of illegal aliens crossing our borders. Free trade is not free.
5. He wants to keep us mired in a war which deters us from our mission. We need to focus on Bin Laden, not Iraq. There are many Christians in Iraq that practice their faith under the penalty of death by Muslim, and they are caught in the crossfire. The death of the Chaldean Archbishop of Mosul should be mourned by us all. We also need to use our troops more effectively, like to police our borders.
6. He supported McCain-Feingold, which I used to support but lately have come to see it is nothing more than incumbency protection.
So, in conclusion, I believe that McCain, Hillary, or Obama will all keep spending us into the depths of debt with future generations picking up the tab. There is really no huge difference between the 3 of them. It's like a choice between the devil, the superdevil, and a little demon henchman.
Between the 3 of them there is no lesser of two evils. That's a fact.
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| | | | exo
Age : 32
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 3264
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:36 am | |
| | Quote: | 1. There are 3 viable candidates: No,
there are 4. Well, there would be if the drive-bys would'nt want to
make love to Hill, Obama and McCain so much. Liberals will LOVE this
election! |
BOOM....by your own words, he's NOT viable. Hence the phrase "WOULD BE".....You've just proven that you DON'T understand the concept of "viability" in regards to the election process. A candidate MUST beable to snare the minds of the masses. They can NOT do that without the so-called "drive by media". It WILL NOT HAPPEN. We live in a day and age where the VAST BULK of their populace gets their information in the pieces and snippets, the soundbytes and monologues that the "drive by media" deal in.
If you CAN'T get into the minds of the "drive by media"....if you refuse to court them.....if you refuse to acknowledge the role they play in the machinery.......guess what....you are NOT a viable candidate.
| Quote: |
2. John McCain is the best choice of the viable candidates. Compared
to Obama and Hillary, yes, but Keyes is the most conservative candidate
since Reagan, and if idiots like Hannity and Limbaugh would realize
that he would have a snowball's chance in hell at least. But no! One
phone call, one endorsement from Nancy Reagan or George H.W. Bush,
silences them and they decide to play ball...ignoring the only
candidate that is even in the ballpark with their beliefs. If every
conservative in this country would rally behind Keyes, the ONLY true
conservative in the race, he would win handily. |
NONE of that has happened/will happen. You are operating on "what if" and pipe dreams. The fact that he can't attract these sorts of endorsements and talk is EXACTLY why he is NOT a "viable" candidate.
| Quote: | 3. Third party votes will take votes away from viable candidates like John McCain. Good.
But you know what, they will also take votes away from Hillary/Obama as
well! But as I said before, if there are enough PO'ed conservatives
like me who want to return to the Reagan years, Keyes might actually
take away enough votes from any of the 3 candidates to at least not
give the winner a mandate (in other words, winning with less than 50 %
of the vote).
|
Which, in the big picture is pretty damned irrelevant. It's not like this so called "mandate" actually gives the winner of the election any more or less power in the office. It's not like their veto suddenly becomes twice as hard to override. Teh concept is actually hollow and meaningless, and has no bearing on the ultimate outcome of the race. The guy that wins....the office will be functionally the same, with or without this "mandate".
The person (s) that lose the election...despite whatever "moral victory" they try to claim, has still lost.
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| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:50 am | |
| I respect your opinion very much.
Now, let me ask you the million dollar question...Is McCain your first choice for president? If not, who did you support until he grabbed enough delegates to win the nomination?
Also, do you believe in principle over party and politics?
Forgive me for sounding argumentative...I'm a nonconformist by nature. Many people do not like my opinions. There are many others like me who refuse to play the game, who refuse to be happy with business as usual. Business as usual has led our country on the road to hell. I'm never going to conform to the Democrats or Republicans ever again. I'm not alone in my thinking either and we will not go away.
But, if you think I have a pipe dream, think again. I have a dream this country can be great again. As Reagan said "We can do it. We're Americans.". The day we all have to submit to a broken system because we feel powerless to fight it is the day the American dream has died. Well, my friend, my dream refuses to die.
Anyway, sorry you don't seem to understand my point of view. God bless and no hard feelings.
_________________
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I proudly lead the Catholic conservative metalhead revolution! |
| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:58 am | |
| One more thing to all who want to listen: Free trade is Un-American.
Read the Report On Manufactures that was written by the greatest mind in American economics and inspired the American School of capitalism...Alexander Hamilton.
God bless him! He'd be spinning in his grave right about now.
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I proudly lead the Catholic conservative metalhead revolution! |
| | | | exo
Age : 32
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 3264
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:00 pm | |
| | Snowy Owl wrote: | I respect your opinion very much.
Now, let me ask you the million dollar question...Is McCain your first choice for president? If not, who did you support until he grabbed enough delegates to win the nomination? |
I don't think I'd define "first choice" the same way you do....as I've said...if a candidate does not fit the template for viability, then they don't exist to me. I don't really bother actively supporting a candidate during the primaries process. I live in Indiana, and the whole process is usually pretty well determined before OUR primaries ever happen.
| Quote: | | Also, do you believe in principle over party and politics? |
Well, I'm a registered independent that, over the course of my lifetime has thrown votes towards Republicans, Democrats, and those of "independent" parties. Party actually matters very, very little to me, despite the fact that I come off as a rabid member of the GOP.
| Quote: | | Forgive me for sounding argumentative...I'm a nonconformist by nature. Many people do not like my opinions. There are many others like me who refuse to play the game, who refuse to be happy with business as usual. Business as usual has led our country on the road to hell. I'm never going to conform to the Democrats or Republicans ever again. I'm not alone in my thinking either and we will not go away. |
This is where we differ. Believe me, I'm NOT happy with "business as usual". But the outcome of a Presidential election is not going to change the way politics operate in this country. It's false and ignorant to propagate the concept that it will. Congressmen and Senators ar eMUCH more responsible for how Washington operates than a President can EVER be. That's where the actual power lies....there is very little the president can do that Congress does not ultimately LET him do.......
I firmly believe that 3rd party interference does more harm than good at this point. It diverts attention form where the REAL problems lie, and where actions need to be taken. It is also ust one more way that the types in charge of "business as usual" actually maintain their stranglehold on the realm of US politics. It's one more way to splinter and devide people, to keep them from ACTUALLY accomplishing change. We have parties cropping up for this, that, and the other thing....and as soon as one starts to get a foothold, INVARIABLY, somebody in the party hierarchy decides that there is something they don't like about they way things are going (USUALLY, over them not getting the leadership position they think they should have), splits off, and takes a good portion of the membership with them. What we end up with is that we STILL have the Big Two being a freight train rumbling towards Election Station, and the 3rd parties are square in the middle of the tracks, but they're so busy arguing over who is gonna pull the switch that the train never gets diverted. It just runs the 3rd parties right over.
| Quote: | But, if you think I have a pipe dream, think again. I have a dream this country can be great again. As Reagan said "We can do it. We're Americans.". The day we all have to submit to a broken system because we feel powerless to fight it is the day the American dream has died. Well, my friend, my dream refuses to die.
Anyway, sorry you don't seem to understand my point of view. God bless and no hard feelings. |
You are right, the political system is broken. But we're not going to go out and buy a new system to put in place. The cost is prohibitive, because it must be paid in blood.
Instead, we need to repair the system.
how do you repair the system? By putting the right people into it.
How do you get the right people in place? By startign at the ground floor, in your local political arena. There's a hierarchy of succession....and generally, you can trace a State Senator or Representative backwards, and you'll find that before they were on the federal level, they ran for office at a STate level....and before that at the more localized levels.
You start at the ground floor, and you get people into these places, instead of running off into the night crying and forming a new party because you don't like the old one.
There are too many layers of redundancy in place in the form of people
who have come up thru the system to be able to change things from the
top down.
The guys at the top of this broken system realize it's broken...but it still runs to suit them. They also know that there are people trying to fix the system, take it bakc to the proper operating status. And they do their best to run these people out. They WANT you to be getting pissed, and forming more parties....because you guys don't have the finances or mass appeal to be a real threat to them, and they know it. By going the 3rd party route you are doing EXACTLY what those in power wish you to do...going somewhere where your powers to exact change are diminished.
I refuse to do that. There's no submission involved.
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| | | | Snowy Owl
Age : 31
Joined : 20 Jun 2007
Posts : 357
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:33 pm | |
| Suit yourself my friend. We'll agree to disagree on the matter at hand. However, I must say that I find much of what you say refreshing and a very good look at how the landscape works. You at least realise what the problem is in our government, which was created to be the greatest form of government in the history of the world. People like you and me disagree on what we can do to fix it, but we both agree that it needs to be fixed.
Thanks for the input, friend.
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| | | | 5minutes
Joined : 07 Nov 2007
Posts : 2021
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:48 pm | |
| | Quote: | | I only started busting your chops after you were insulting my intellingence...that really makes me mad. |
Then perhaps you should get more intelligent. You can start by learning stuff and not accusing people of things when you can't grasp basic concepts.
| Quote: | | Now, since I'm not going to be someone who stays inside the mainstream (especially since the mainstream lost its wheels a long time ago), realise that what the Republican Party is calling "conservative views" are not conservative at all. The reason I use the term neoconservative is to describe so called "conservative principles" brought over to the Republican Party by classical liberals a long time ago who dissapointed the Democratic party did not embrace them anymore. I personally cannot help it if the New Left movement has taken some conservative principles and trumpets them as their own. True conservatism believes in isolationism, small government, individual liberty, personal freedom, and putting America first. Neoconservatives like Kristol and Wolfowitz have stolen the conservative mantra under a false moniker (New World Order) and we want the title of "conservative" back because Wolfowitz and Kristol are not conservative. |
OK - let's do some education...
No political party is a single, unified force. Even your beloved Constitution Party is divided on exactly how conservative its take needs to be on abortion, and has tossed out entire state parties that accepted exceptions to abortion in extreme circumstances. They are currently on 19 ballots - 1 of which is Presidential election only, and 2 of which are completely disaffiliated from the national party. The California branch is the largest, mostly because they're called "The American Independent Party" there, and God help them, there are some dumb people in that state who think they're signing up as an unaffiliated voted when they sign up as an Independent.
The GOP is a collection of factions, and has been ever since they formed in the late 1850's. Today, the factions are:
1. The Liberal Republicans - Lincoln Chafee and his ilk
2. The Neoconservatives and Moderate Conservatives - Both Bushes, McCain
3. The Old Guard Reagan Conservatives - People like Trent Lott and Liz Dole
4. The Christian Right - The real group that the Constitution Party is targeting
5. Paloeconservatives - Jim DeMint, Richard Burr, and finally
6. The Young Reagan Conservatives and South Park Republicans - Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, and most importantly, me.
Believe it or not, we're less divided than the Democrats, who have conservatives, Blue Dogs, Clinton Moderates, Yellow Dogs, Classic Liberals, Neoliberals, Far-Left liberals, socialists, communists, and every possible flavor of nutball single-issue protester.
Now, on to the history lesson...
If we go back through the Presidential Elections, you can see who controlled the party at that time...
1948: Liberal Republicans
1952: Moderates
1956: Moderates
1960: Liberals
1964: Early Reagan-style conservatives
1968: Moderates
1972: Moderates
1976: Liberals
1980: Reaganites
1984: Paleocons
1988: Reaganites (they accepted Bush, who ended up more liberal than promised)
1992: Moderates
1996: Moderates
2000: Neoconservatives
2004: Neoconservatives
2008: Neoconservatives
If I were a betting man, I'd say that 2012 is going to show a bit of a change. The reason is that the rise of the moderates really came into play back in the 50's and, they've controlled the party ever since. The problem for them is that they're, well... from the 1950's. The time of the New Reagan Conservatives is coming. There's an excitement among this faction (that I group with the South Park Republicans - Conservative and Libertarian leaning party members who share much in common with this branch) about the people growing out of the shadow of the Reagan legacy.
See - the guys in control right now claim Reagan, but they really didn't learn from him. They worked with him in some cases, but they didn't grow up with him. We did. We learned from his example, and we're ready to take the reins of the party that has changed in the past, and will chance in the future.
In other words, contrary to your claims, the GOP is not dead. It's just your limited vision of what the party should be that's dead.
| Quote: | Now, onto your little conundrum that you point out:
1. There are 3 viable candidates: No, there are 4. Well, there would be if the drive-bys would'nt want to make love to Hill, Obama and McCain so much. Liberals will LOVE this election! |
Like exo said, you've just illustrated your own problem. You think Keyes WOULD BE a viable candidate IF... That's the problem. "If" doesn't exist. Keyes is not, and will never be, a viable Presidential candidate.
And it's not like the guy hasn't had his chances. He's just blown every single one of them. Couple that with his carpetbagging in Illinois (where he got roundly spanked by the same guy he's supposedly running for President against), his hateful remarks about his own daughter, and his stage-diving antics, and you get a guy who's beyond loopy.
Oh, and did I mention "Borat"? I think a couple of people saw him make an idiot of himself in that movie. At least McCain had the brains to do "Wedding Crashers", where he could be with the insanely hot / scary Isla Fisher.
| Quote: | | 2. John McCain is the best choice of the viable candidates. Compared to Obama and Hillary, yes, but Keyes is the most conservative candidate since Reagan, and if idiots like Hannity and Limbaugh would realize that he would have a snowball's chance in hell at least. |
But he doesn't. And no amount of wishing for endorsements is going to make them happen. Besides, Keyes was permitted to debate in several states - and he still got spanked in those states' primaries. Apparently, he's just not as charming and wonderful as you think he is.
| Quote: | | 3. Third party votes will take votes away from viable candidates like John McCain. Good. But you know what, they will also take votes away from Hillary/Obama as well! |
Yes, but liberals aren't trying to steal my vote away. I don't have Green Party and Socialist Workers Party members harassing me on boards to "vote my conscience". No, I get my nutroots from the other side of the lunatic fringe telling me that voting for anyone other than Alan Keyes is a slight against God, America, and apple pie.
I would say "yay", but I'm just not happy enough about it.
| Quote: | | But as I said before, if there are enough PO'ed conservatives like me who want to return to the Reagan years, Keyes might actually take away enough votes from any of the 3 candidates to at least not give the winner a mandate (in other words, winning with less than 50 % of the vote). |
And if frogs didn't hop, they wouldn't bump their butts.
| Quote: | | Hope that helps you understand how I feel. I do feel that many conservative voters are scared enough by a Hillary/Obama presidency that they vote for McCain out of fear of that liberal boogeyman under the bed. Be honest, you are scared too! You have proved it to me time and time and time again. You cannot convince me otherwise! |
I've proved no such thing. I don't fear a Hillary and Obama presidency, because I believe that our country can overcome even their stupidity. I don't, however, think it's a wise idea to allow our country to go through another Carter Experiment to "teach all them dumb ol' neocons a lesson about who's really in control" because, frankly, you have no hope. If you did, I might support the CP candidate, but because I believe my vote actually counts on election day, I will be voting differently.
pqyite[But hey...STOP WORRYING![/quote]
Who's worried? I'm not the one trying to evangelize for Howard Phillips disciples.
| Quote: | | Now, if you would stop insulting my intelligence please. |
Start behaving intelligently and you'll be treated as such. Stop whining when people prove you wrong. Stop playing bait and switch with opinions.
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| | | | DeathMetalCookieMonster
Resident Aryeonaut
Joined : 07 Apr 2007
Posts : 1818
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:12 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Who are the ones voting principle over party? That is voting with your own mind. |
Matt, you're doing it AGAIN! THIS is why people get irritated with Ron Paul fans and 3-rd party pushers. "WE are voting with our own minds because WE are voting 3rd party! If you don't vote 3rd party you are not principled and you don't vote with your own mind!"
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Romans 6:1-23
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| | | | DeathMetalCookieMonster
Resident Aryeonaut
Joined : 07 Apr 2007
Posts : 1818
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:15 pm | |
| | scottmitchell74 wrote: | | Quote: | And just to clarify once again, what is your definition of overkill?
VALEDICTION
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 654
Ashenvale
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1709 |
Touche!!!
Too much popcorn upsets my stomach.
DMCM has my favorite posts so far! ...ooops, I mean |
I"m # 1!!! I'm #1!!! 
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Romans 6:1-23
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| | | | DeathMetalCookieMonster
Resident Aryeonaut
Joined : 07 Apr 2007
Posts : 1818
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:22 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Now, let me ask you the million dollar question...Is McCain your first choice for president? If not, who did you support until he grabbed enough delegates to win the nomination? |
Matt, I've explained this to you time and time again. The primaries (which you are in favor of being open and therefor catered more towards moderates then anything) are used to decide who will run in the general. That's not the same as "picking the ONLY person they would ever vote for in the General election".
The purpose of the general election is to pick who you think would be best to run the country THAT IS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION BALLOTS.
I was hoping Fred Thompson would be the nom. Does that mean that I"m not principled if I vote for McCain in the general since (a) he's actually on the ballot and (b) he's the best, IMO, of all the candidates IN THE GENERAL?
_________________
Romans 6:1-23
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| | | | DeathMetalCookieMonster
Resident Aryeonaut
Joined : 07 Apr 2007
Posts : 1818
| | Subject: Re: Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:23 pm | |
| | Quote: | | I have a dream this country can be great again. |
Spoken as someone who's been to many, many different countries, this country is STILL great!
_________________
Romans 6:1-23
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| | | | | Conservative , Liberal..ad infinitum... | |
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