Something to keep in mind

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:25 am

Sir Shred A Lot wrote:

I don't know... Not to nitpick too much, but I think it's important, the 5% in your scenario would be dictating how the property is "NOT used"'; they wouldn't be dictating how it is used. In other words, if the 5% were of a different religious group, they could not display something promoting their religion on that same public property.

Pretty specious reasoning. Restricting what can and cannot be displayed is dictating how it is used.

In the original post, GP pointed out that Halloween is as much a religious holiday for pagans as Christmas is considered a religious holiday for Christians. So are you saying when a few people are offended at Halloween displays on public property, you support the removal of anything related to Halloween?

It's not about promoting "my religion" at the expense of all others, it is about recognizing a common cultural heritage, and the ability of the American public to celebrate that common culture. Secularists such as yourself are determined to unravel that. You have that right, but I have just as much right to fight to preserve that cultural heritage.
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:28 am

GlassPrison wrote:

I think the problem is with the 95% if they can't get organized enough to actually do something about an issue.

Sure they (we) can. Organization does not do much in the face of a court injunction and threats of legal reprisal. That is why the secularists are winning, they have the courts, by and large.
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!

Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:33 am

Quote:

Sure they (we) can. Organization does not do much in the face of a court injunction and threats of legal reprisal. That is why the secularists are winning, they have the courts, by and large

Bingo.

You are correct. Crying or Very sad

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all....

Sir Shred A Lot

Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1494

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:38 am

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Pretty specious reasoning. Restricting what can and cannot be displayed is dictating how it is used.

How's that different than what you want to do? The only difference is that you think the majority religion should be able to display its religion, while minority religions cannot. As I said before, I don't think the founders of this country intended for the majority religion to get special privileges in this area. Do you think they would?

Quote:

In the original post, GP pointed out that Halloween is as much a religious holiday for pagans as Christmas is considered a religious holiday for Christians. So are you saying when a few people are offended at Halloween displays on public property, you support the removal of anything related to Halloween?

The distinction I would make is between RELIGIOUS symbols and SECULAR symbols. To me, Santa Claus and Jack-o-Lanterns are not religious symbols. But nativity scenes and pentagrams are religious symbols. A nativity scene at Christmas time or a pentagram at Halloween would be things that could be excluded on religious grounds.

So, to answer your question, yes I would support the removal of RELIGIOUS halloween symbols. Am I going to fight tooth and nail for this? Of course not... But I'm speaking as to my own opinion. As I said before, I couldn't care less if there are any holiday displays on any public property.

Quote:

It's not about promoting "my religion" at the expense of all others, it is about recognizing a common cultural heritage, and the ability of the American public to celebrate that common culture. Secularists such as yourself are determined to unravel that. You have that right, but I have just as much right to fight to preserve that cultural heritage.

Secularists such as myself? Nice... So if I don't think that one religion should get to dictate to other religions what is or is not displayed, then I'm a "secularist."

Why don't you just come out and say that you want to tell other religions that you have more rights than they do? That's what you're saying, and that's clearly not the sort of principles that this country was founded upon.

Let's say you lived in an area of the USA that was primarily Jewish. Would you then support their right to display ONLY Jewish symbols and forbid the display of Christian symbols?

Sir Shred A Lot

Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1494

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:40 am

We're sitting around whining about Christmas displays... It's no wonder that people aren't converting to Christianity these days.

alldatndensum
Mission Of One

Age : 38
Joined : 03 Jan 2007
Posts : 4928

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:54 am

Quote:

We're sitting around whining about Christmas displays...

It's no wonder that people aren't converting to Christianity these days.

Post of the week!
_________________

"History doesn't happen to you--it happens THROUGH you."

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:22 pm

Sir Shred A Lot wrote:

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Pretty specious reasoning. Restricting what can and cannot be displayed is dictating how it is used.

How's
that different than what you want to do? The only difference is that
you think the majority religion should be able to display its religion,
while minority religions cannot. As I said before, I don't think the
founders of this country intended for the majority religion to get
special privileges in this area. Do you think they would?

Straw man. I never said anything of the sort. The legal battles
currently being fought is not between allowing "only Christian symbols"
or "symbols of all faiths", it is between allowing any religious
symbols or none at all. The fact that Christian symbols are the primary
focus just highlights the fact that Christianity is an important facet
in American culture, more so that any other religion.

Quote:

The distinction I would make is between RELIGIOUS symbols and SECULAR
symbols. To me, Santa Claus and Jack-o-Lanterns are not religious
symbols.

To others they are religious symbols and there have been people
who have challenged Santa Claus because he is a bastardized symbol of a
Christian saint. Do you believe that one person with an axe to gring
should be allowed to cry "offensive" and dictate to everyone else what
they can or cannot do on public property? Because that is what is
happening.

Quote:

So, to answer your question, yes I would support the removal of RELIGIOUS halloween symbols.

As defined by a handful of people or as defined by most people?

Quote:

Secularists such as myself? Nice...

Yes, you think all religious symbols should be removed from public
property, so I would catagorize that as a secularist position. If you
would prefer I use another term, then suggest one and I'd be hapopy to
use it. Smile

Quote:

So if I don't think that one religion should get to dictate to
other religions what is or is not displayed, then I'm a "secularist."

Nope, and that is not what I said. I'd appreciate it if you would
confine your arguments to what I say and not what you want me to say.

Quote:

Why
don't you just come out and say that you want to tell other religions
that you have more rights than they do? That's what you're saying, and
that's clearly not the sort of principles that this country was founded
upon

Oh really, is that what I want? I'm so glad I have you to tell me these things, I had no idea.

Quote:

Let's
say you lived in an area of the USA that was primarily Jewish. Would
you then support their right to display ONLY Jewish symbols and forbid
the display of Christian symbols?

No, what I would expect is that public displays would primarily be
Jewish in nature and I would hope that I might be allowed a smaller
space to display Christian symbols. THAT is the sort of
principles our country was founded upon and what I believe in.

Freedom of religion may seem unimportant to you, but it is very
important to me, and something to be cherished, not tossed away
lightly. There are no unimportant freedoms in my mind and no battle is
too small to fight in defense of them.
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:23 pm

Sir Shred A Lot wrote:

We're sitting around whining about Christmas displays...

It's no wonder that people aren't converting to Christianity these days.

Cheap shot.....
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

BackFromTheDawn

Age : 21
Joined : 18 May 2007
Posts : 2710

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:31 pm

some people get uppity in my church when while decorating for christmas Santa Claus is banned from the decorating...despite the fact that the real man was a bishop who gave away his money to those who needed it more than he...allbeit, sneakily yet the christmas tree, originally a pagan german symbol, is in full prominent display (but i know the story of that as well, so it doesn't really bother me, i'm just amused). so, to restate what's been said, i leave people to their personal beliefs and just keep the holiday in my way, the way my mother raised, a little of the commercial side with focus fully on the christian meanings...ALL OF THEM! _________________ "He had discovered Time and Death and God"-Aldous Huxley

Sir Shred A Lot

Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1494

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Straw man. I never said anything of the sort. The legal battles currently being fought is not between allowing "only Christian symbols" or "symbols of all faiths", it is between allowing any religious
symbols or none at all. The fact that Christian symbols are the primary
focus just highlights the fact that Christianity is an important facet
in American culture, more so that any other religion.

Why did you raise the 95% vs. 5% issue if this is not what you meant? Perhaps I misunderstood.

So now you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how many people want to display something; basically, if anyone wants to display something, then it's OK.

Quote:

To others they are religious symbols and there have been people
who have challenged Santa Claus because he is a bastardized symbol of a
Christian saint. Do you believe that one person with an axe to gring
should be allowed to cry "offensive" and dictate to everyone else what
they can or cannot do on public property? Because that is what is
happening.

Again, I don't care... This means nothing to me. I've not done a thing in my life to work for or against having a holiday symbol displayed on public property.

So, no, I don't care about what symbols can be displayed on public property.

Call me a secularist. Call me anti-Christian. Call me apathetic.

Nowhere do I get the sense that we are called as Christians to fight for our right to display religious symbols on public property.

Quote:

As defined by a handful of people or as defined by most people?

I should clarify my earlier comment that I would "support" the removal. I should say that I would not oppose it.

Quote:

Yes, you think all religious symbols should be removed from public
property, so I would catagorize that as a secularist position. If you
would prefer I use another term, then suggest one and I'd be hapopy to
use it. Smile

Again, I should have been clearer. I don't think that "all religious symbols should be removed from public property."

I simply don't care if they're all removed from public property.

Quote:

Nope, and that is not what I said. I'd appreciate it if you would
confine your arguments to what I say and not what you want me to say.

My bad. I understood your 95% vs. 5% comment to be a statement that the majority should get to decide which symbols are or are not displayed.

Quote:

No, what I would expect is that public displays would primarily be
Jewish in nature and I would hope that I might be allowed a smaller
space to display Christian symbols. THAT is the sort of
principles our country was founded upon and what I believe in.

Freedom of religion may seem unimportant to you, but it is very
important to me, and something to be cherished, not tossed away
lightly. There are no unimportant freedoms in my mind and no battle is
too small to fight in defense of them.

I guess I don't consider being unable to display a nativity scene ON PUBLIC PROPERTY to be any violation of the freedome of religion. If we're talking about that on your own private property, then that's a whole different ballgame, IMO.

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:32 pm

Sir Shred A Lot wrote:

Why did you raise the 95% vs. 5% issue if this is not what you meant? Perhaps I misunderstood.

The 5% in my example was meant to refer to those who are "offended" by anything that smacks of religion in public life. I suspect that most are not really offended, but are simply using these PC concepts as a means of forcing their views on others.

Quote:

So now you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how many people want to display something; basically, if anyone wants to display something, then it's OK.

Yes, I think that would be the fair solution, but that is not what is happening. We have a sort of practical atheism being forced upon us by a minority.

Quote:

To others they are religious symbols and there have been people
who have challenged Santa Claus because he is a bastardized symbol of a
Christian saint. Do you believe that one person with an axe to gring
should be allowed to cry "offensive" and dictate to everyone else what
they can or cannot do on public property? Because that is what is
happening.

Again, I don't care... This means nothing to me. I've not done a thing in my life to work for or against having a holiday symbol displayed on public property.

I've never done anything in my life for or against it either.

Quote:

Call me a secularist. Call me anti-Christian. Call me apathetic.

Just don't call me late for dinner, eh? Wink

This smacks of martyrdom. I think apathetic would fit as well, since you say you don't care at all about this issue (although you've spent a curious amount of time on an issue you don't care about); but I never called you anti-Christian. I did call you a secularist and defined it as descriptive of your position. I stand by my term, since you seem to be unwilling to offer any other term.

Quote:

As defined by a handful of people or as defined by most people?

I should clarify my earlier comment that I would "support" the removal. I should say that I would not oppose it.

But this dodges the question. Who gets to decide what is a religious symbol and what is not?

Quote:

No, what I would expect is that public displays would primarily be
Jewish in nature and I would hope that I might be allowed a smaller
space to display Christian symbols. THAT is the sort of
principles our country was founded upon and what I believe in.

Freedom of religion may seem unimportant to you, but it is very
important to me, and something to be cherished, not tossed away
lightly. There are no unimportant freedoms in my mind and no battle is
too small to fight in defense of them.

I guess I don't consider being unable to display a nativity scene ON PUBLIC PROPERTY to be any violation of the freedome of religion.[/quote]

When is has overwhelming PUBLIC SUPPORT, I see nothing wrong with it. Do you?

Quote:

If we're talking about that on your own private property, then that's a whole different ballgame, IMO.

Just wait, it's coming..... private property rights are in very real danger here in America. They have been severely eroded by leftists on many fronts. This is just one example. You are looking at it on an individual basis and saying "no big deal". I am looking at the larger picture and it's frightening.
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:28 pm

No response? I'd really like to know who you think should decide what is a religious symbol and what is not. _________________ It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

Sir Shred A Lot

Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1494

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:07 am

Tall Tyrion wrote:

No response? I'd really like to know who you think should decide what is a religious symbol and what is not.

We're in such completely different worlds on this issue. I don't know that anything constructive can come from discussing it much more, and I don't want to get into a tiff or anything. LOL...

But I will reply here and I hope this will clarify further where I stand.

Quote:

Yes, I think that would be the fair solution, but that is not what is happening. We have a sort of practical atheism being forced upon us by a minority.

No. We absolutely do not have any type of "practical atheism being forced upon us by a minority."

The fact that you can make this sort of statement in relationship to the question of religious symbols being displayed on public property just demonstrates the fact that we're talking completely different languages.

Symbols displayed on public property do not force any religion or non-religion on anyone. Nobody becomes an atheist because of the fact that no religious symbols are displayed on public property.

Now practically speaking...

I do not think it's practical to say that anyone and everyone can display religious symbols on public property. What you'd then have is people fighting over which displays could be put in the most favorable places. How big can the displays be? Who is responsible for maintaining them? What if 50 people want to put a display in a high-visibility location - who decides which one gets preference?

So in a perfect world, yes, I would agree with you that anyone should be able to display symbols. I don't have a problem with the principle; it's the practical application that causes problems as a society becomes more pluralistic. And I think this is what we have happening in the US today and one of the reasons that it's moving in the direction that it's going.

Quote:

This smacks of martyrdom. I think apathetic would fit as well, since you say you don't care at all about this issue (although you've spent a curious amount of time on an issue you don't care about); but I never called you anti-Christian. I did call you a secularist and defined it as descriptive of your position. I stand by my term, since you seem to be unwilling to offer any other term.

As I said, call me whatever you want. Apathetic. A martyr. Go for it.

Quote:

But this dodges the question. Who gets to decide what is a religious symbol and what is not?

I would say that, practically speaking, the courts should decide what is or is not a religious symbol. Who do you think should decide this issue? It's unclear to me where you stand on this question.

Quote:

Just wait, it's coming..... private property rights are in very real danger here in America. They have been severely eroded by leftists on many fronts. This is just one example. You are looking at it on an individual basis and saying "no big deal". I am looking at the larger picture and it's frightening.

I'll be on your side if it gets to the point you fear. No worries.

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:42 pm

Quote:

No. We absolutely do not have any type of "practical atheism being forced upon us by a minority."

The
fact that you can make this sort of statement in relationship to the
question of religious symbols being displayed on public property just
demonstrates the fact that we're talking completely different
languages.

I think we are as well. My statement was based on the big picture, and on a LOT of factors, not just this one issue.

When I was at the Grand Canyon, I noticed at least two bronze plaques
with Scripture verses on them, relating to the glory of creation. I
overheard one guy talking to another who said "Here's one the ACLYU
missed." I smiled to myself, but sure enough, later that same year,
suit was brought against the National Parks Service to have those
plaques removed.

As an individual thing, would that be a big deal to me? Shatter my
faith? No not really, but it is one of hundreds of ways that a small
but vocal minority are seeking to wipe any mention of God or the
Scriptures out of public life. If we have no mention of God publically,
I would call that a practical atheism. It is not only offensive to me
as a Christian, it is the direct opposite of what our founding fathers
believed and intended for us.

I think we can both agree that Thomas Jefferson was one of our least
religious founding fathers. Yet what is inscribed on the Jefferson
Memorial in Washington DC?

Quote:

Panel One:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable
rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,
that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men.
We . . . solemnly publish and declare, that these colonies are and
of right ought to be free and independent states. . . And for the
support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection
of divine providence, we mutually pledge our lives, our fortunes,
and our sacred honor."

Quote:

Panel Two:

"Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence
it by temporal punishments or
burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author
of our religion . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support
any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account
of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to
profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of
religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting
singly or collectively.

Quote:

Panel Three:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation
be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties
are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect
that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce
between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly
written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free.
Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the
business of the state and on a general plan."

Quote:

Panel four

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions,
but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress
of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened,
as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners
and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions
must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well
require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy
as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their
barbarous ancestors."

I think those say a whole lot about not only Jefferson himself, but
also the people who constructed the Memorial. Could we post these
quotations today on a bulletin board at a government school? Not
likely. How long before we are knocking down the walls these are carved
in and replacing them with quotes that have nothing to do with God or
an acknowledgement that religion played so important a role in public
life in the first few centuries of this country?

What is going on is not only a practical atheism, it is almost a
rewriting of history to scrub it clean of any mention of God in a
public setting, either historical or current.

Quote:

As I said, call me whatever you want. Apathetic. A martyr. Go for it.

LOL You called yourself apathetic I just agreed with you.

Quote:

I would say that, practically speaking, the courts should decide what
is or is not a religious symbol. Who do you think should decide this
issue? It's unclear to me where you stand on this question.

I think that the people of each faith should be allowed to decide for
themselves what symbolizes their faith. The courts are heavily weighted
in favor of the secularist minority. Would you agree with having the
courts decide if they decided to advance one religion and trample all
others? It would just be a matter of getting the "right" judges
appointed.

Quote:

I'll be on your side if it gets to the point you fear. No worries.

I believe you, but by then it will be far too late. We saw the same
thing happen with smoking. At first, it was banned on just
international flights, then flights over two hours, then on all
flights. It was restricted to a smoking section in restaurants, then
banned altogether (note that restaurants are private property). It was
banned in hospitals, then all public buildings. Then they went after
public parks, even outdoors. Now it IS being proposed by some that
smoking be banned in private homes "with small children"

I'm not here to be a great crusader for smoking, I like smoke free
restaurants, but shouldn't that be left up to the owner of the
restaurant to decide? No one is forced to enter or work in an
establishment that allows it, it is a legal substance and it is private property.
_________________
It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

Hawk of May

Joined : 30 May 2007
Posts : 320

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:36 pm

Quote:

it's funny how many people of the Christian persuasion have no problem celebrating the commercialized version of halloween and participating in the various cultural rituals of candy-giving and trick-or-treating involved without even giving a second thought to some of the more spiritual "meanings" it supposedly originally had and still has for select groups.

Are there really quite a few people like this that you know of? I only ask because I don't think I remember ever knowing anyone like this.

Quote:

it's funny how some of those people above are also the first to complain about Christmas becoming commercialized, robbed from Christian theology, having Christ taken out of it and reduced to a bunch of cultural rituals of gift-giving, get togethers and the like.

I don't think I know any personally who complain about this however, I do know a few who take some measures to remind themselves and others around them of the true meaning of Christmas.

Quote:

And if that is too much, well then, just remember that Dec. 25th was originally a pagan celebration, and SueNC says that anything that isn't Christian is pagan, so maybe all of us non-Christians are just celebrating the pagan holiday that the day originally was.

Yes, even before it was called December the 25th, it was celebrated as Saturnalia by the Romans. I'm honestly tired of people (and yes, I know quite a few of these) that decry their own claim of how their holiday (Saturnalia) was stolen by the Christians. It was not.

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:16 pm

Actually the Romans stole it first. _________________ It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

emptytomb1
Man in Morph

Age : 40
Joined : 08 Apr 2007
Posts : 7749

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:33 pm

Happy Winter Solstice everyone!!!! _________________ Alldat: I take a bath every Saturday night whether I need it or not.

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:51 pm

Praise Tammuz! _________________ It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono

emptytomb1
Man in Morph

Age : 40
Joined : 08 Apr 2007
Posts : 7749

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:55 pm

You'd love Portland Tallt. No Judeo/Christian anything can be on any gov't building or land but they have buddhist bells at the convention center. KEEP PORTLAND WEIRD! _________________ Alldat: I take a bath every Saturday night whether I need it or not.

Tall Tyrion

Age : 40
Joined : 27 Jan 2007
Posts : 5304

Subject: Re: Something to keep in mind Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:11 pm

We've got a downtown area just like that here. There was a headshop called the Pentagram. There is a Christian presence there, though. One coffee shop was owned by a gay couple that were very much into promoting alternative views on about everything. They just sold it to a Christian lady and the difference was immediate and obvious. _________________ It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building. - Bono