"Militaria Makes The World Go-Round."

**Black Rider** · Subject: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:56 pm

system was better for fighting, the maniple or the cohort then we can talk.
Or something like that. It's so obvious. The cohortal system worked better as it was able to move faster. Now, give credit to the manipular system as some of it's tactics were still used but the cohortal was the system that lasted.

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:28 pm

You slay me bro'. Razz

O.K. In all seriousness......do you really care to talk about this?? Question

Or are you just making a *Ha--Ha*?? Question

Because if so......you succeeded. Twisted Evil

So.....really?? Question

Maniple or cohort?? Question

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

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**alldatndensum** · Mission Of One Number of posts: 9831 Age: 40 Registration date: 2007-01-03

Quote:

Man-nipple or cohort??

Fixed that for you! Twisted Evil

_________________

"DEJA MOO--The feeling that you've heard this bull before!"

**Black Rider** · Man in Morph Number of posts: 14438 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-04-09

Sick. Probably why we like you.

As for an answer of what was better, my first post was serious, though, using manipular may not be the correct form of the word.

_________________
I don't have time for all if it, so I pick my battles. I concentrate on spotting and weeding out satanic paper, handkerchiefs (do you really want Satan that close to your nose?) and eggs. I can spot satanic eggs at Wal Mart like a frickin' drug sniffing dog.

GODSWIZARD · Play it LOUD!! Number of posts: 17790 Age: 52 Registration date: 2007-01-06

Points:

1. Alldat said:

Quote:

Man-nipple or cohort??

Fixed that for you! Twisted Evil

Well....... Embarassed

.....

......I never.

2. Black Rider said:

Quote:

using manipular may not be the correct form of the word

It is.

I.E. manipular formation(s), manipular tactics, manipular battlefield use(s), etc.

3. O.K. since you were serious. Twisted Evil

I would have to agree with you; in essence, even though the manipular (Latin: Manipulus) formations and battlefield tactical uses of the manipular reforms of Camillus, circa 350 B.C. until circa 100 B.C., when finally replaced by the Marian reforms which finally instituted the cohort (Latin: Cohors), were both very long--lasting and frequently used by the Romans against all battlefield opponents--with much success and even a bit of failure--the cohort was a greatly improved way of fighting.

After the Greek phalanx and its phalangites of the Roman Servian era of warfare, circa 550 B.C. to circa 350 B.C., was finally done away with by the totally different organizations and reforms of Camillus, Roman use of the maniples was found to be a brilliant way of achieving battlefield superiority over its foes. While the Roman Allied forces were able to adopt the (smaller) cohorts because of the uniformity of their defensive 'kit' and weapons, the Romans found that their centuries (Latin: Centuria) were well adapted to the new maniples, whatever the actual numerical strength of the centuries was. The varying armor and weapons of the four classes of Roman soldiers, the Velites, Hastati, Principes, and the veteran Triarii, were well suited to both manipular organization and battlefield employment. The maniples were found to be both extremely variable in use, and tough in staying power on the battlefield when combat was joined and had been going on for some time.

However, even with the long use of maniples on the battlefields of the Roman Republic until almost the end of the Republican era and the dawning of the Empire, Marius found them to be too limiting in employment with his soldiers' new uniformity of equipment, both defensive and particulary offensive. Marius instituted a large number of reforms to the Roman Army. These Marian reforms were finalized by about 100 B.C. Most of them are not germane to my discussion, but the new unified equipment of the Roman legionary (Latin: Legiones) allowed him to adopt the cohort of the Allied Roman forces and use it for his legionaries. The maniple retained its organizational use, but no longer had any utility on the battlefield as it was completely replaced by the newly adopted cohort.

The 30 maniples of each Roman legion (Latin: Legio) were replaced by 10 cohorts. The first cohort was twice as large as the other nine were. The soldiers who composed that first cohort were always the best in the legion. Hence, its greater size and veteran experience. While the cohorts still used the 'checkerboard' battlefield employment of the earlier maniples, their greater size and superior 'kit' and weapons--as well as the standardization of that 'kit' and weaponry--allowed it to be much more efficient in use on the battlefield. As you say it, "was able to move faster" around the battlefield and had better fighting utility by virtue of its greater size than the maniple. Even though the cohort was larger than the maniple, the legionaries in that cohort were professional soldiers drilled to perfection, whereas the legionaries who composed the earlier maniples, while very good at times, were simply not up to the uniformly finer quality of the Roman Imperial legionaries of the cohorts.

Thus, in summary, on the battlefield the cohort was essentially faster, quicker in both offense and defense, as well as better suited to be more powerful in both offense and defense, than the earlier maniples.

4. This is a very fun discussion bro'.

The *ball* is in your court. What say ye'?? Question

Any particular battles or employments (of either maniples or cohorts) come to mind?? Question

EDIT: Got rid of one word in a sentence, thereby improving the sentence structure, and corresponding clarity, of a sentence.

KISS

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:39 pm

*BUMP* for Black Rider. Twisted Evil

Bovine
Ukranians
Masticate
Poorly

Say something bro'. scratch

And don't be a smartypants and just say "something". Evil or Very Mad

You've actually got someone here (me) who finds this extremely interesting and knows a bit about it......and I know you're interested in the Roman Army of both the Republican and Imperial eras so......let's talk. Twisted Evil

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

**Black Rider** · Man in Morph Number of posts: 14438 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-04-09

Ok. Do you think opening up the army to free Roman citizens instead of just the higher class with wealth was a good thing?

_________________
I don't have time for all if it, so I pick my battles. I concentrate on spotting and weeding out satanic paper, handkerchiefs (do you really want Satan that close to your nose?) and eggs. I can spot satanic eggs at Wal Mart like a frickin' drug sniffing dog.

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:54 pm

Is that a *loaded question*.......or is it meant in a straightforward way??

Are you going to pummel me with a bat regardless of what I say?? Question

Hmmmmm.......i'll have to think on this. scratch

As I do.....why did the Romans ultimately lose at Cannae?? Question

Thoughts?? Question

Hypotheses?? Question

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10044 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

I really liked the pizza from our Noble Roman franchise. Twisted Evil

I was sad when it closed. Sad

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:31 pm

Quote:

I really liked the pizza from our Noble Roman franchise. Twisted Evil

I was sad when it closed. Sad

Wrong topic. Neutral

To the Thracian salt mines with you.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10044 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! I just wanted to talk about Pizza! affraid

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007

Gone · Number of posts: 969 Registration date: 2008-12-03

What you guys really like is how the Roman Soldiers, unlike the Greeks, liked having clean shaven faces instead of beards. They also considered it better for battle.. for some reason.

_________________

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:59 pm

AshenV said:

Quote:

What you guys really like is how the Roman Soldiers, unlike the Greeks, liked having clean shaven faces instead of beards. They also considered it better for battle.. for some reason.

Points, both made in complete and total seriousness too:

1. The first sentence.....i've no *liking* at all.....I could care less if they were clean shaven, had beards, or used woad to dye their faces blue as the British Celts did.

The answer to why the Romans had clean shaven faces and the Greeks did not is completely cultural in nature. It was cultural. Period.

2. The second sentence..... scratch

......you seriously don't know why the Roman legionaries did not have beards......the *military* reason?? Question

There was the cultural reason. That is ignored for this response, however. I'll only consider the military reason.

The Romans were SERIOUS about state sponsored violence and the organized killing that went with it. The Romans were the most finely trained killers that ever existed (IMO of course), from the later Assyrian Empire's troops to the various troops of differing ethnic demographies that arose after the Western Roman Empire's demise in 476 A.D. Among them the troops of the Eastern Roman Empire under Justinian and his general Belisarius, as well as those of the Sassanid Persians......just to name two.

O.K. Here is why the Romans would not allow beards to be grown and worn in the Republic, as well as the early and middle Imperial time periods. In close combat an opponent can grab your beard and use it against you. It's that simple. The Romans, until the army was fading as an instrument of state policy in the Western half of the Empire, would not allow beards. Period.

KISS

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Gone · Number of posts: 969 Registration date: 2008-12-03

Yea, I know the reason and all that. And jeez, Greg, mellow out.. have a free gnome...

_________________

**Black Rider** · Man in Morph Number of posts: 14438 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-04-09

Quote:

As I do.....why did the Romans ultimately lose at Cannae?? Question

Thoughts?? Question

Hypotheses?? Question

The short answer: Ego and Hannibal was a genius. But as the curtain parts for the next act, a man enters who fights in any way he has to, to secure victory.

Who is it?

_________________
I don't have time for all if it, so I pick my battles. I concentrate on spotting and weeding out satanic paper, handkerchiefs (do you really want Satan that close to your nose?) and eggs. I can spot satanic eggs at Wal Mart like a frickin' drug sniffing dog.

metalheadz · Number of posts: 687 Age: 18 Registration date: 2007-04-07

alldatndensum wrote:

Quote:

Man-nipple or cohort??

Fixed that for you! Twisted Evil

That made me lol!

.

And now for my expert analysis of the man-nipple fighting technique: While some of my fellow expert man-nipple scholars may disagree with my years of research, I simply do not believe that the man-nipple fighting tactics were very effective. For one, it leaves its practitioners too vulnerable to an enemy combatant who favors the nipple-gripple fighting technique. I believe this is the primary reason the manus-boobus tribe was defeated (and ultimately wiped out) time and time again.

_________________
"Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him." - Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote:

ultmetal wrote:

Both! All wankers are banned!

CrissOlivaShreds wrote:

This board will be empty.

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: "Militaria Makes The World Go-Round." Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:04 am

Three points:

1. Black Rider said:

Quote:

But as the curtain parts for the next act, a man enters who fights in any way he has to, to secure victory.

Who is it?

I honestly don't have the slightest idea of whom you refer to. scratch

Roman (I assume)?? Question

Non--Roman?? Question

If it is Roman......who?? Question

You've lost me. scratch

Publius Cornelius Scipio, also known as Scipio Africanus?? Question

He is associated with the defeat of Hannibal Barca. Twisted Evil

Gaius Julius Caesar......Caesar?? Question

Gaius Marius?? Question

There are a handful of Romans who were badassed on the battlefield between Scipio Africanus and Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (Augustus Caesar). Who do you mean?? Question

Wait.....i've got it. cheers

(I hope) Do you mean Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus?? Question

I'll go with Fabius. Fabius is my answer. It took me that long (all the typing above) to figure it out. Shocked

Fabius. I should be shot.

2. Black Rider said:

Quote:

As I do.....why did the Romans ultimately lose at Cannae?? Question

Thoughts?? Question

Hypotheses?? Question

The short answer: Ego and Hannibal was a genius.

Yeah, again I will agree. Short answer is the generalship of Hannibal Barca. Twisted Evil

The generalship of Hannibal was 'light--years' ahead of the Roman commanders Varro and Paullus. In ultimate terms it was not weapons or armor, it was not the skills of the soldiers at Cannae, it ended up being the initial tactical set up on the battlefield, and the way that set up played itself out over the day.

The Roman cavalry on the flanks, both Roman and Allied, was driven off the field by Hannibal's cavalry, opening up the flanks on both sides of the Romans to Carthaginian infantry advances that no longer had to worry about the Roman cavalry. The Carthaginian center had held the Roman infantry to a minimal advance and still presented a unified linear front. Once the famed Carthaginian double envelopment was complete it was simply a matter of the fact that Hannibal had completely nullified the superior Roman manipular tactics and made them unusable.

The Carthaginian infantry was able to bring a much greater number of troops and weapons to bear, than was the completely encircled and closely packed Romans. The Romans had about 75,000+ infantry as they began the battle, but only a small fraction of that manpower was able to be brought to bear against the Carthaginians and their Celtic and Italian Allies. Also, since the manipular tactics of the Roman infantry had been nullified by the double envelopment, the Romans were unable to bring fresh troops into the fight, at any time. It was a slaughter of the Romans.

3. Black Rider said:

Quote:

Do you think opening up the army to free Roman citizens instead of just the higher class with wealth was a good thing?

It had both good and bad aspects. Twisted Evil

How's that for an evasive answer?? Question

I'll answer fully tomorrow. I'm too tired right now. Neutral

I need to go beddie--bye--boo. Sleep

Tomorrow bro'. Twisted Evil

Or......

.....should I say tomorrow Centurio Primus Pilus?? Question

(Batman has agreed to stand in for the *Centurio Primus Pilus* emoticon we don't have)

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10044 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

Black Rider wrote:

But as the curtain parts for the next act, a man enters who fights in any way he has to, to secure victory.

Who is it?

Maximus Desimus Mordius? Question

The Undertaker? Question

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007

**alldatndensum** · Mission Of One Number of posts: 9831 Age: 40 Registration date: 2007-01-03

Quote:

Mordius?

Wasn't that the dude on The Matrix? lol!

_________________

"DEJA MOO--The feeling that you've heard this bull before!"

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10044 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

Nope, Russell Crowe's character on Gladiator. I spelled it phonetically from memory, so I probably got the spelling wrong. Smile

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007