L8t just wants to take classes where he can sniff illicit items.

True--he just wants to be sure he does that correctly. He wants to move beyond the hobbyist level.

The biggest tank battle in history.


Brutal.

The battle.


I'll list some casualty stats in my post......later.


Kursk was......ugly. Brutal.


There were something around 1,250 (give or take a dozen or two) combined number of German and Russian tanks in point--blank range battle at Prokhorovka Station at the Battle Of Kursk. I'll also list some stats on that tank--to--tank, point--blank, firefight and exchange.


Brutal.

Is this really over?

(It's summer, lying in the sun,....but, mostly working in the yard - emoticon, Here)






Tell the teacher we're surfin'
Surfin' USA

No Intrigued1.....it's not over. I work too darn much and am just not around the computer any more on Thu.-Fri.-Sat.-Sun......and not as much as I would like to be on my days off. The last *cycle* of days off I totally forgot about this thread. So even though I was on the CMR a bit.....I forgot to post on this thread.


On my next *cycle* of days off i'll post a little more info on Kursk and then pose something new for all you *budding history* buffs.

I hear you. I worked 94 hours last week. Except I work around a computer and have lots of downtime (on weekends.)

*BUMP*



Breasted
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Males
Pander


I will post on this thread tomorrow......if it is the last thing I do.

"Help me. I've fallen and I can't get up."

The long awaited post.


Kursk. Also, a new question.


Points:


1. Black Rider said:

Quote:

Didn't know much about this except it was in Russia and that it was near the end for the German war effort. Near Kursk which is about halfway between Moscow and the Black Sea, and was the biggest tank battle of WWII. Gruderian and Manstein, the two best German field commanders had suggested to compensate for the large Russian advantage by utilizing the superiority of the German commanders and soldiers in tactics, command, and fighting, by a strategy of dynamic mobile defense that would cause great losses to the Russians in a series of local clashes. The goal being to delay the Russians as overall victory wasn't possible. Hitler went with the more sexy yet extreme idea of concentrating most armored vehicles in one area for a decisive victory as proposed by General Zeitsler. Problem? Aerial photos showed the Russians were prepared for such a concentrated area with anti-tank defenses and their tanks being held far behind the front lines. As the Germans prepared they photgraphed the area heavily and carefully mapped out their intended routes. Problem was, thanks to a high level of spying, the Russians knew all about the attack and were more then ready. On July 4, 1943 when the attack started Russia had 1,300,000 Russian soldiers with 3600 tanks, 20,000 guns, including 6000 76mm anti-tank guns, and 2400 aircraft were concentrated in and around the Kursk area. The Germans lost, badly, and began the long march of retreat back to Germany.

Please reread his post. It is good. There are only two things in it that I even take exception to. Anything else is just......quibbling, and i'm not going to bother with that.

First, his numbers at the end of his post are debatable. No biggie. There have been disagreements over the numbers of this, or that, or the other thing, employed at Kursk since the end of WW II. His numbers are as correct as anyone elses. Just to let you know, however, the numbers do differ according to the source. IMO the most accurate numbers yet produced have been those by the noted military historian David M. Glantz as he was provided exclusive access to restricted Russian archival sources, as well as the usual German archives used by others.

Second, this: "....that it was near the end for the German war effort." Let me rephrase that another way and by doing so state it a bit more accurately, what he may have meant. After the Battle Of Kursk the Germans fought on for another 22 months before giving up. There was still a lot of fight, and a lot of, "war effort" left in them. What was new and different about Kursk, was the fact that it was the first time in the war a major--all out--German Summer Offensive failed to break through the enemy's front line and into the enemy's rear area where the Panzers and Panzergrenadiers (tanks and motorized infantry) could wreak havoc and collapse the enemy front. Kursk was a complete failure for the Germans.




2. Let me just add a little to what he said. Kursk was the town at the center--back of a large salient the Russians possessed which stuck into the German front line, and was just asking to be pinched off by the Germans and all the Russians inside the salient killed or captured. Thusly, the Germans attacked at the north and south of the Russian salient and tried to pinch it off at the back of it and wrap up the Russians inside it. They failed badly. The Russians had weeks to prepare their defenses and knew the Germans were coming, and basically when, too. The Russians prepared anti--tank 'killing zones' that were several miles thick and had many lines of defense to them. It was a defense in depth to the *Nth* degree. Also, there was no lack of reserve forces (mostly tanks) to contain any German breakthroughs and counter--attack when the Soviet Generals wanted to.

In the north the Germans barely cracked the Russian front, only managing to push a total of 8 miles at the furthest extent of German penetration into the Soviet front. The German attack started on July 5, 1943 and by the 12th they had only managed to advance 8 miles, and went no further. By the 14th the Germans began to withdraw.

The Germans did slightly better in the south. At the main point of advance/attack they got up to about 25 miles into the 3rd Russian anti--tank belt. However, they were never able to achieve a significant operational penetration and break into the Russian rear. The battle started here in the south on the 5th of July, as in the north, and the furthest German advance happened by the 12th; by the 18th the Germans began to withdraw in the south.




3. Earlier I said:

Quote:

Kursk was......ugly. Brutal. There were something around 1,250 (give or take a dozen or two) combined number of German and Russian tanks in point--blank range battle at Prokhorovka Station at the Battle Of Kursk. I'll also list some stats on that tank--to--tank, point--blank, firefight and exchange. Brutal.

Let me add to that a bit, also. This was the largest tank battle in history. It took place on July 12, 1943. Brutal. To put it in a bit of context, the Germans were at their furthest distance of advance into the Soviet lines and at that point the Russian tanks counter--attacked. It was a mix of some of the best tanks and tankers the German Waffen SS (Armed Schutzstaffel) possessed, against some of the Russian's best. BTW there were absolutely no German Wehrmacht (Army) tanks here, it was all Waffen SS. The Germans were blasting their way through the last Russian anti--tank 'killing zone' and were in danger of breaking past it when the Russians threw their tank reserves in the southern sector into the attack.

My numbers given here are from the David M. Glantz book When Titans Clashed: How The Red Army Stopped Hitler, and are the most correct to truth numbers available IMO.

The German Mark VI Tigers, Mark IV--H model Panzers, and Mark V Panthers all had guns which could outrange the guns on the Russian T34/76s (the T34/85 was not in service yet). If the Russians had stayed at longer range the Germans would have shot them to pieces. So as it was the Russians sped into a cavalry--like charge directly toward the Germans tanks around Prokhorovka Station. There were around 1,250 total tanks swirling and whirling in a limited sized area of terrain, shooting up each other. At point--blank range the tank to tank battle was conducted at, the Russians were able to cancel out the German guns' superiority at longer range and the two sides' tankers were guaranteed to shoot each other to flaming wreckage at such point--blank range. The superior armor on the german tanks was simply not proof against the T34/76s' shots.

The tank shooting match lasted for several hours. At the end of it the cost was thus: The Russians had lost well over 400 of their initial 800 tanks. The Germans suffered nearly as badly, even worse when considered as a percentage of the total number of tanks engaged. They started the engagement with about 450 total tanks, and ended it with about 320 tanks destroyed and burnt out. So......of the total 1,250 about 750 were shot up at the end of the day.

The Germans started to retreat on the 18th of July and never ended......all the way to Berlin.




4. O.K. new topic for consideration. This is part of a quote by a famous national leader in WW II. Please tell me who said this, what year he said it, who his--main--enemies were he talked about in this quote, and lastly please provide me with a little info to place his quote in some sort of context.

This is closed book. The battles were all open book, I just wanted you to learn about the battles, any way you had to. I would prefer you all guess who said the quote(s) and not look them up.......if no one gets the answer I can tell you later who said it. If you get it correct, great, let us know you knew this. If you get it incorrect we can all laugh at you ......(kidding)......and see how far off base you were with your answer.




5. The partial quote:

".....whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,...."




Decide.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

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As I just now finished this post......i'm bumping this puppy back up to the top so the 5 or 6 people that read this thread will know my post is now done.

Oh......this:

Quote:

The tank shooting match lasted for several hours. At the end of it the cost was thus: The Russians had lost well over 400 of their initial 800 tanks. The Germans suffered nearly as badly, even worse when considered as a percentage of the total number of tanks engaged. They started the engagement with about 450 total tanks, and ended it with about 320 tanks destroyed and burnt out. So......of the total 1,250 about 750 were shot up at the end of the day.

What would our fine, fine *living in that alternate Leftist reality* American mainstream media do with these facts??

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Thanks for grooving one in there, Wizzer (TM) ( ).....



btw, I am sending you something to pin on your white meat.

Points:


1. You said:

Quote:

Besides it being terribly short???

It was short.

Seriously......short.

I could write pages about this (most any Western Civilization military topic, any place, any time, any people group) at the drop of a hat, so to speak.




2. You also said:

Quote:

Brutal was a very good description of that battle and that time........that was a lot of tanks!!!.....LOTS of Heavy Artillery!!!.......

Dude.....can you imagine how loud it was with 1,250 heavy cannon of 75mm, 76mm, and 88mm blasting away, with the resultant explosions......along with the associated 1,250 diesel engines?

Loud.....brutal....lots, and lots, and lots of death and maiming.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

*BUMP*



Bleached
Ukranian
Males (are)
Pale


So one of you 5 or 6 regulars even going to try??

I gave you my answer already..........I answered with a partial quote, my FAV quote, by the person that made the quote in your post...........did you get that GW?