Manzikert

8/26/1071

Byzantine Empire vs. Seljuq Turks

Manzikert was in Armenia at the eastern end of the Byzantine empire. Emporer Romanos IV led the Byzantines and Sultan Alp Arslan led the Turks. It was a horrible loss for the Byzantines, according to what I have read most historians place the battle as the beginning of the decline of Byzantine fortunes. It was the beginning of the end for the Empire.

Points.


1. Manzikert, and a new battle.



2. But first:

Quote:

An interesting story about a bearded lady is Jean Furella. She was a bearded lady who fell in love with a circus barker named John Carson. He could not deal with the beard. So she shaved off the beard so they could get together. However, she loved the show. So she had her entire body tattooed and she became the tattooed lady to stay in the show.

Interesting.



3. The Battle Of Manzikert (truly very famous)

"The following applies to all of my battles named. Please tell me the following about The Battle Of Manzikert: Where was it fought, when was it fought, who were the commanders and troop nationalities/troop names of the two opposing sides, who was the winner of the engagement, and for extra credit and valuable points redeemable at a *Barack Obama Cooking With The Stars* school near you......please give me a little bit of info about the battle; this is your chance to *strut your stuff*, so to speak."



4. Intrigued1 said:

Quote:

Manzikert 8/26/1071 Byzantine Empire vs. Seljuq Turks Manzikert was in Armenia at the eastern end of the Byzantine empire. Emporer Romanos IV led the Byzantines and Sultan Alp Arslan led the Turks. It was a horrible loss for the Byzantines, according to what I have read most historians place the battle as the beginning of the decline of Byzantine fortunes. It was the beginning of the end for the Empire.

All correct.

I'll just add a wee bit of commentary to that, for understanding of how very important this battle was to world history.

The Byzantine Empire had, until this battle, been very strong militarily and the major impediment to the Muslims moving into Europe and also seizing, and holding, the Holy Land. After Manzikert they held onto the Holy Land and prevented Europeans from making pilgrimages and forbade European presence in it. This event, more than anything else, brought on the Crusades. (Those bad old Europeans. How dare they react militarily to an Islamic provocation)

Manzikert also started the centuries long decline, and ultimate fall, of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines had always been able to provide a strong and stalwart bulwark against the advance of the Muslims toward Europe. After Manzikert that began to irreversibly change. Because of Manzikert the Byzantines lost the majority of Anatolia in Asia Minor. (The Asian part of the current country of Turkey) The region of Anatolia was where the Byzantines recruited most of their--good--soldiers from, and the loss of the Themes (a Byzantine economic and military geographic area of administration) there was a blow from which the Byzantines never recovered totally.

Although the Byzantines did recover somewhat from the loss at Manzikert, they were never the same, or as strong militarily, as before it. The die was cast to what would be the total fall of the Byzantines at Constantinople in 1453, and the ability of the Ottoman Turks to start moving into Europe. They gotta' keep on advancing the Islamic domain to be true to the command of Muhammad the prophet of Allah.

I love Islam.



5. Next battle. From in my home state.


The Battle Of The Little Bighorn

The following applies to all of my battles named. Please tell me the following about The Battle Of The Little Bighorn: Where was it fought, when was it fought, who were the commanders and troop nationalities/troop names of the two opposing sides, who was the winner of the engagement, and for extra credit and valuable points redeemable at a *Tom Cruise Acting School* near you......please give me a little bit of info about the battle; this is your chance to *strut your stuff*, so to speak.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

People better at least know the leader of the U.S. forces in this battle, Lt. Colonel Custer and should probably know Sitting Bull was the leader of the Indian army. Crazy Horse was also a leader in this battle. Tired of being forced onto reservations the Sioux and Cheyenne left them and after a couple of wins over the Cavalry they continued to pursue fighting in 1876. The short version is: Custer is leading of three columns of men, encounters a small group of warriors and spots a village a few miles away. Not wanting them to alert the main party he decides to attack not knowing he would be outnumbered 3:1. Sending men into unkownn terrain and against a much larger fighting force the slaughter was on and all because he hadn't the patience for the other two columns of men to catch up or to learn what he'd be up against.

Custer led the 7th Calvary. He was under the command of General Terry who had a plan to force the Lakota to surrender the Black Hills and move to the reservation. Custer, in his usual bravado disregarded Terry's plan and tried to defeat the Lakota by himself.

Several bands of Lakota had met on the banks of the Greasy Grass. There were Hunkpapa, Oglala, Mincounjou and others. There were also Northern Cheyenne, Arapahoe and other tribes present. They had gathered I believe in one of the ancient traditions of the Teton tribes, something about the circle. Leaders of some of the various bands that were there were: Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gaul, American Horse.

Custer had been sent out by Terry to find the tribes. He was then supposed to wait and several units would combine to defeat the tribes. Custer recieved various reports from his Crow scouts that a large group had gathered by the Little Big Horn. Custer divided his command into 3 parts. Major Reno and Captain Benteen were each given a command. The 3 troops would attack from different sides. Custer had participated in massacres of various tribes before and likely thought this day would be no different. He ignored the scouting reports of large numbers of warriors.

Reno's troop was the first to attack. The Lakota did not have guards set up as one might think. They were gathered for religious ceremonies. The night before the attack, Sitting Bull (who really did not participate in the fight) had performed the sun dance?? and had a vision of large numbers of soldiers falling into the camp. The Lakota found out what that meant the next morning. Reno's troop surprised the Lakota. However, the Lakota far outnumbered Custer's entire command, especially when it was split into thirds.

Reno was quickly repelled into a stalemate. Troopers and Lakota fired at each other througout the day but after the first action not much else went on. Benteen eventually joined Reno in this stalemete. Custer was to attack from a different area. The entire third with Custer were all killed. (I think a horse survived.) This was the biggest (and last) victory for the Lakota.

The aftermath. Custer was thought to have presidential aspirations. These of course ended with his death. One wonders what might have happened had he become president, particulary with the South and Reconstruction. Reno was court-martialed for not helping Custer. I believe he was acquitted but his career was over. The news was a downer for America. Only a few years removed from the bloody Civil War, the nation (at least in the North) had looked forward to Centennial celebrations. News of Custers defeat came just as 4th of July celebrations were beginning.

For the Lakota this was the beginning of the end. America already wanted the sacred Black Hills because gold had been discovered there. Many of the Lakota lived a sort of double life. During winter they would go to the reservations and live off government provisions. During spring and Summer they would join the free bands under leaders like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. AFter the battle many of them went back to the reservation. For those who did not the Army was coming. Crazy Horse's band was tracked down in the middle of the next winter. He surrendered for the good of his people. Sitting Bull escaped to Canada for a few years but eventually he too was forced to the reservation. Most of the provisions of the Great Sioux Treaty were overturned and the Lakota were forced to live on reservations. Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull were both eventually murdered by other Lakota. (Althought Sittnig Bull travelled for a while with Buffalo Bills Wild West Show.) A few years later, a Messianic movement started among the plains tribes and the Lakota really took to it. The Ghost Dance started on the Lakota reservations. This put fear into the White settlers and the Army. Eventually this led to the Wounded Knee Massacre in which many Lakota were killed. This slaughter took the last will out of the people. The Lakota reservations today have some of the worst poverty in the US.

I wanted my 100th post to be of a light hearted nature. I got involved in serious discussion on another thread and almost lost count. I come back to this thread where I was once mentioned in the title to make my 100th post. Triple digits who would have thought?

Thanks to all of you on the CMR for getting me through my new job on the midnight shift.

Good post, you really went above and beyond. I've done the midnight shift, it was not good for me.

The Lakota wars have been a passion of mine since I was a little kid. Hope I wasn't too wordy.

As for the midnight shift, it is hard for many reasons, but I am blessed to have this job. God provided for my need in getting it.

Spot checking some of what I said. Crazy Horse was killed by troops trying to arrest him on the reservation, not by other Lakota.

Intrigued1 said:

Quote:

Custer led the 7th Calvary. He was under the command of General Terry who had a plan to force the Lakota to surrender the Black Hills and move to the reservation. Custer, in his usual bravado disregarded Terry's plan and tried to defeat the Lakota by himself. Several bands of Lakota had met on the banks of the Greasy Grass. There were Hunkpapa, Oglala, Mincounjou and others. There were also Northern Cheyenne, Arapahoe and other tribes present. They had gathered I believe in one of the ancient traditions of the Teton tribes, something about the circle. Leaders of some of the various bands that were there were: Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gaul, American Horse. Custer had been sent out by Terry to find the tribes. He was then supposed to wait and several units would combine to defeat the tribes. Custer recieved various reports from his Crow scouts that a large group had gathered by the Little Big Horn. Custer divided his command into 3 parts. Major Reno and Captain Benteen were each given a command. The 3 troops would attack from different sides. Custer had participated in massacres of various tribes before and likely thought this day would be no different. He ignored the scouting reports of large numbers of warriors. Reno's troop was the first to attack. The Lakota did not have guards set up as one might think. They were gathered for religious ceremonies. The night before the attack, Sitting Bull (who really did not participate in the fight) had performed the sun dance?? and had a vision of large numbers of soldiers falling into the camp. The Lakota found out what that meant the next morning. Reno's troop surprised the Lakota. However, the Lakota far outnumbered Custer's entire command, especially when it was split into thirds. Reno was quickly repelled into a stalemate. Troopers and Lakota fired at each other througout the day but after the first action not much else went on. Benteen eventually joined Reno in this stalemete. Custer was to attack from a different area. The entire third with Custer were all killed. (I think a horse survived.) This was the biggest (and last) victory for the Lakota. The aftermath. Custer was thought to have presidential aspirations. These of course ended with his death. One wonders what might have happened had he become president, particulary with the South and Reconstruction. Reno was court-martialed for not helping Custer. I believe he was acquitted but his career was over. The news was a downer for America. Only a few years removed from the bloody Civil War, the nation (at least in the North) had looked forward to Centennial celebrations. News of Custers defeat came just as 4th of July celebrations were beginning. For the Lakota this was the beginning of the end. America already wanted the sacred Black Hills because gold had been discovered there. Many of the Lakota lived a sort of double life. During winter they would go to the reservations and live off government provisions. During spring and Summer they would join the free bands under leaders like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. AFter the battle many of them went back to the reservation. For those who did not the Army was coming. Crazy Horse's band was tracked down in the middle of the next winter. He surrendered for the good of his people. Sitting Bull escaped to Canada for a few years but eventually he too was forced to the reservation. Most of the provisions of the Great Sioux Treaty were overturned and the Lakota were forced to live on reservations. Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull were both eventually murdered by other Lakota. (Althought Sittnig Bull travelled for a while with Buffalo Bills Wild West Show.) A few years later, a Messianic movement started among the plains tribes and the Lakota really took to it. The Ghost Dance started on the Lakota reservations. This put fear into the White settlers and the Army. Eventually this led to the Wounded Knee Massacre in which many Lakota were killed. This slaughter took the last will out of the people. The Lakota reservations today have some of the worst poverty in the US.

It was really nice of you to make some excerpts from your upcoming book about Custer's Last Stand.


I'll not add anything to that. BTW Black Rider......yours was a good post, too.


Next battle:

The Battle Of Kursk (A nasty big and nasty bad battle. Lots of death)

"The following applies to all of my battles named. Please tell me the following about The Battle Of Kursk: Where was it fought, when was it fought, who were the commanders and troop nationalities/troop names of the two opposing sides, who was the winner of the engagement, and for extra credit and valuable points redeemable at a *Dancing With The Paraplegics* stage near you......please give me a little bit of info about the battle; this is your chance to *strut your stuff*, so to speak."

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Didn't know much about this except it was in Russia and that it was near the end for the German war effort. Near Kursk which is about halfway between Moscow and the Black Sea, and was the biggest tank battle of WWII. Gruderian and Manstein, the two best German field commanders had suggested to compensate for the large Russian advantage by utilizing the superiority of the German commanders and soldiers in tactics, command, and fighting, by a strategy of dynamic mobile defense that would cause great losses to the Russians in a series of local clashes. The goal being to delay the Russians as overall victory wasn't possible. Hitler went with the more sexy yet extreme idea of concentrating most armored vehicles in one area for a decisive victory as proposed by General Zeitsler. Problem? Aerial photos showed the Russians were prepared for such a concentrated area with anti-tank defenses and their tanks being held far behind the front lines. As the Germans prepared they photgraphed the area heavily and carefully mapped out their intended routes.
Problem was, thanks to a high level of spying, the Russians knew all about the attack and were more then ready. On July 4, 1943 when the attack started Russia had 1,300,000 Russian soldiers with 3600 tanks, 20,000 guns, including 6000 76mm anti-tank guns, and 2400 aircraft were concentrated in and around the Kursk area. The Germans lost, badly, and began the long march of retreat back to Germany.

Points:


1. Nice post bro'.



2. Any additions......thoughts?? I will add my own (probably) tomorrow or Tuesday.



3. From ^^^^ above ^^^^:

Quote:

Hitler went with the more sexy yet extreme idea....

Extreme violence and bloodshed is always exciting and "sexy" to a.........


Freaking stinking pervert.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Wasn't there a board game from the late 70's/early 80's that was based on this battle?

Kursk is a region on the Risk board game if I remember right.

I am auditing this class this quarter........


I am taking chemistry (pool chemistry,.... chlorine, bleach....etc. ( BTW, doing just as bad in that class, but, it gets me outside ) and horticulture.....you know, grass, weeds, poison ivey, basic landscaping........and basic engine repair/maintenance..... you know, riding lawn-mower repair (every two weeks), weed waker maintenance..........

It isn't that I don't care about history and battles,........I just am more concerned with current events (in my own 4 acres ).......

So, I am gonna' just read and digest for awhile......

From ^^^^ above ^^^^:

Quote:

It isn't that I don't care about history and battles

I don't believe you.


You don't care about history or battles.

History and battles are as American as apple pie.



SHOOT!! Wrong emoticon!!



History and battles are as American as apple pie.



You......you..... ....... ...... .......Communist.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all