I can't see any wine that wasn't very strong being described as the "best wine".

[quote="intrigued1"]

Kit wrote:

I'll drink when it's right. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that speaks against alcohol. What about Leviticus 10:9, Proverbs 20:1, Proverbs 31:5, Ezekiel 44:21, Hosea 4:11, Ephesians 5:18, 1 Timothy 3:3, Titus 1:7? These verses seem to speak against strong drink, against getting drunk, and against leaders/deacons being addicted to wine. So I would say the bible does have something to say against alcohol. Can we agree drunkenness is a sin?

Drunkenness is a sin, without a doubt. 100% in agreement.

I believe that alcohol and drunkenness are two different things. Alcohol in excess leads to drunkenness, but alcohol in moderation seems to be innocent. Paul even encouraged Timothy to drink wine instead of water because of illness. Yes, Biblical wine was much lower on the alcohol content, but the drunkenness was still possible.

Christians need to keep themselves in check if they drink. They need to know their limits and not have alcohol get between them and God.

On a side note, I detest drinking games. It's a sneaky way for the temptation of drunkenness to get to you. The moment I hear someone brag about their Beer Pong skills, my respect for them drops.

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Seriously, Im not trying to start an argument, just responding to a few passages you mentioned.

Intrigued:

Quote:

What about Leviticus 10:9, Proverbs 20:1, Proverbs 31:5, Ezekiel 44:21, Hosea 4:11, Ephesians 5:18, 1 Timothy 3:3, Titus 1:7? These verses seem to speak against strong drink, against getting drunk, and against leaders/deacons being addicted to wine. So I would say the bible does have something to say against alcohol.

Leviticus 10:6 - 9
⁸ Then the LORD said to Aaron, ⁹ "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.

In the verse above Moses is telling Aaron and his sons that they must be sober when they enter the tent of meeting. This isnt condemning drinking of wine altogether, just at a specific time, earlier in the same passage he says they are not to let their hair become unkept or their clothes torn. I hope you brushed your hair this morning bro

Proverbs 20:1
¹ Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

First of all, proverbs is not a book of law, it is saying that whoever is led astray by alchohol is not wise. What I get from this is that the writer is saying not to let it control you. I may be wrong there, Im no scholar.

Proverbs 31:5-7
⁵ lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
⁶ Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
⁷ let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more

The begining of this chapter shows that it is the mother of King Lemuel saying this. You need to look at the whole thing, because she is saying to give alchohol to those in dire straits so they can pretty much forget their torubles. Again, Proverbs is a book of wisdom, but not of law.

Ezekiel 44:21
²¹ No priest is to drink wine when he enters the inner court.

He's talking about priests in the inner court.

Hosea 4 is not talking about condemnation of Alchohol, it is a condemnation of Israel because they keep turning away from the lord.

None of these OT passages condemn drinking of alchohol in all circumstances

NT
Ephesians 5:18
¹⁸Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

I agree with that, but its not condemning alchohol altogether

1 timothy 3: 1 to 3
¹Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,^[a] he desires a noble task. ²Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, ³not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

Hes talking about people wanting to become an elder or a deacon. Again he's not all out condemning alchohol, just abuse of it.

Titus 1:6-7
⁶An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. ⁷Since an overseer^[b] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

Once more, Paul is talking about an elders' responsibility. He is not condemning people for having a beer.

I repsect your decision on not drinking, Intrigued, but not everyone has been brought up the way you were and some people do enjoy a beer, just like Jesus recognised when he made the watr into wine. Im not advocating drunkenness, but having the odd beer or two, or wine or whatever is ok, as long as you have the self control to not get drunk and your actions arent a stumbling block for others.

When you mention scriptures it is a good idea to look at them first and see what they are actually saying because none of the verses you quoted were saying that drinking alchohol is a sin.

I was very fond of drinking during my latter teenage years. I believe I would have become an alcoholic. But, I met this girl (who became & is still my wife) who did not want a drinker for her boyfriend. She told me I could either drink or date her. So, I quit drinking.

Except for one on my 21st birthday because I was "legal", I haven't touched it since. I have no desire for it. That's been nearly 19 years now.

If you want to live without it, it isn't that difficult. You can live without it--trust me.

Here are some other verses:

Quote:

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. Gen.14:18 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine. Gen.27:28 And for a drink offering thou shalt offer the third [part] of an hin of wine, [for] a sweet savour unto the LORD. Num.15:7 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Judges 9:13 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart. Psalm 104:14-15 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Proverbs 31:6 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Ecc.9:16 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: Joel 2:19 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! Luke 7:33-34

For those whose convictions lead them to avoid alcohol, I say bravo! Don't drink, it is better for you.

But teetotaling is not required by the Bible at all. The Scriptures allows drinking in moderation and even says that it is a good thing. Drunkeness is not good, however. Like all things, alcohol can be a blessing if used properly and a sin and a cursing if used improperly.

Gluttony is also a sin, but food is a blessing. Fornication is a sin, but sex is a blessing. It's all about context and moderation.

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Isnt like a glass of wine a day good for the heart?

I agree fully with the first few posts on this thread

I have to say this a very divisive argument in the church. I personally don't drink. I never developed a real taste for it and feel it is not necessary. The biblical drinking of wine was because it was the only way to safely store any kind of liquid. Other than water it was the only drink to be had if you were traveling and even water can go bad. However i worry more about causing others to stumble than whether or not it is a personal sin. I don't believe it is a sin, I believe it is more a choice of being responsible.

Then again, it's a RARE day when our fridge doesn't have beer in it. I drink.....frequently. I happen to like the flavor of most non-IPA beers. But it's a rare thing when I have more than a few at a time, simply because I don't feel like dealing with wasting my time recovering from the previous night.....when you work 3rds, the daylight of your days off is a precious thing...

Points:


1. Master's Apprentice said:

Quote:

I think alcohol has been around in various forms since forever.

It has been.



2. True story:

Back in Great Falls, Montana the pastor of our church for about a decade was the same man. He did not drink alcohol. However, he always kept a single Miller (TM) in his fridge. When someone who had never before been to his house came over.....he would ask if they wanted a drink. Then he would run through some choices. He would say something like, "We have milk, Kool--Aid (TM), water, Pepsi (TM), oh......wait a second".....and then he would disappear for a few seconds, come back and say, "and we have some Miller (TM) too. What is your preference?" as he showed them the can of Miller (TM).

It was always fun to see the stranger's reactions.

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I have a very addictive personality. What I really get into, I REALLY get into. Doesn't matter what it is. So I have an interesting balance to find. I'm relying more on focusing on Jesus image and faith in Him now more than I am just the rule of the matter and worrying about punishment. I used to smoke like a freight train. Its been almost a month sense I quit. I used to drink a lot too. It was never really an everyday thing but I never could just sit down and have 2 or 3 beers or what have you. I always had to have 10 or 12. So I have to stay away from it. At one time I used to smoke pot and snort pain pills but that didn't get too out of hand. Now a days I'm straight edge. xxx