The Christian Metal Realm is a community made up largely of Christians who also happen to love heavy metal! You do not have to be a Christian to join, but you MUST be respectful. |
| | Official Universalism Thread |    |
| |
| Author | Message |
|---|
Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
 |  Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread  Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:45 am | |
| | Quote: | | Interesting. Would this be the traditional universalist view on Jesus' death on the cross? |
From everything I've seen, yeah. Not to say that some UR's may disagree on certain "fine print" points, but that is the crux of it that I can see.
I can't recall any UR's claiming there being NO punishment/purging at all, ie: "you die and go right in to Heaven". Judgement & purging is definitely a part of it.
Mainly, UR's just don't believe in eternal Hell-fire & brimstone as the eternal, torturous penalty for faulty judgement & earthly decisions.
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
|  | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:50 am | |
| Because it makes a joke of free-will. 
It says that free-will does not matter. 
Free-will does matter.
Free-will is important to GOD. Very important. It is part of HIS nature.......the nature we ended up with. To lessen in importance that nature of the DEITY......mocks the DEITY. Peeps tend to get touchy when the nature of the DEITY is mocked.
You know......again, i'm out. I/we could go around here in circles.......forever. I've been into Universalism study longer than some of the peeps here.......have been alive. Ugh......i'm out. Circles make me dizzy.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:56 am | |
| | GODSWIZARD wrote: | | Don't presume to mistake enthusiasm for knowledge. O.K?? |
Heh. You need not worry.  "Tomme spann skrangler mest", as we say in Norwegian.
| Shawn Of Fire wrote: | | Quote: | | Interesting. Would this be the traditional universalist view on Jesus' death on the cross? |
From everything I've seen, yeah. Not to say that some UR's may disagree on certain "fine print" points, but that is the crux of it that I can see.
I can't recall any UR's claiming there being NO punishment/purging at all, ie: "you die and go right in to Heaven". Judgement & purging is definitely a part of it.
Mainly, UR's just don't believe in eternal Hell-fire & brimstone as the eternal, torturous penalty for faulty judgement & earthly decisions. |
OK, thanks a lot. |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:21 am | |
| | GODSWIZARD wrote: | Because it makes a joke of free-will.
|
In no way, not a single time, did I make free-will out to be a joke. Free will, a gift from God, dictates every choice we make. We make free-will choices everyday, including the choice to ignore the Presence of God (whether on purpose or not). Free-will dictates a large part of our lives.
We don't choose to have the sun shine, but we choose whether or not to stay in the shade or walk out into the sun.
We don't choose to get goose-bumps in cold weather, but we choose whether or not to put on a coat.
We don't choose the type of injury we receive by jumping off a bridge, but we choose to jump.
We don't choose for God to be real or not, but He is. We choose to acknowlege it or not.
We don't choose for God to love us, but He does. We choose to live this life IN that Love or not.
We didn't choose for Jesus to die for us, but He did. We choose to live this life around this fact or not.
We didn't choose for Jesus to say "It is finished.", but He did. We choose whether or not we have to do anything else for it to really BE finished.
We humans love our free-will, don't we? "Don't take away our freedom of choice! It's all we have! It's all the power I have in this life! How dare you tell me I can't choose for myself!"
The problem is when we think our free-will is more important than God's.
The problem is when we think our free-will is more powerful than God's, or outweighs God's.
God used His Free-Will to CHOOSE to give us free-will...we don't have it "just because"...it's not a consequence, it's not a trait, it's not scientific. It was given to us, therefore it can be taken away. It's a possession, not a right. In truth, our "free" will is only "free" because we didn't have to buy it & we can use it anytime we want while on this earth. But to think our God-given free-will has ANY power outside of our limited, physical understanding is either ignorant, arrogant, or both (IMO).
Do you think God would give us finite-brained creations THAT much unlimited power over Eternity?
BUT - God, in His Wisdom & Power, can USE our Free-Will to bring about His Will. He's that smart...smarter than us, believe it or not.
Tell me HOW what I quoted below makes a "joke" of man's free-will:
| Quote: | Some people say "God won't force us to do anything, so He won't force us to go to Heaven if we don't want to"...to which I say, I agree...God won't force us to do anything we don't want to do. He let's us make choices, stand or fall, all day everyday while on this earth and we have to live with the results of those choices.
BUT - When God makes Himself truly known...when God lifts the veil that is concealing all of His Wonder & Glory...when God shows His Face...do you think anyone on the face of the earth will be able to stand, let alone turn up thier noses & say "no, I don't believe in You." I tell ya, when God chooses to show Himself, not a knee will go unbowed and not a tongue will go silent...all of our own free will.
|
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:32 am | |
| | Quote: | We didn't choose for Jesus to say "It is finished.", but He did. We choose whether or not we have to do anything else for it to really BE finished.
|
I felt the need to expand on this one.
God did ALL this without consulting us. (gasp!) I think that in some cases, deep down, we don't WANT anyone making choices for us...not even God.
I think, either out of arrogance or a feeling of "Well, I have to do something!", we feel like we need to put our own stamp on it.
Doing this, IMO, is like telling God that what He did wasn't good enough for us, so we're going to put our finger on it too so we don't feel like someone, (gasp!) took away our free-will!
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:02 am | |
| I keep talking to myself (LOL!) and feeling like I need to keep adding:
God is an Eternal Being. Right? No beginning, no end...the Uncaused Cause of all creation. By it's very nature, God's Will is also Eternal.
What infinite consequence can happen if God does not Will it to happen? Likewise, if God does NOT desire an infinite consequence, how can it happen?
Why do we think that our God-given free-will, a will given to a limited, finite physical being with a wicked-low shelf-life, is even anything close to being the same as God's Will, let alone something that can trump or override His Will?
Eternity is something we can barely define, and never possibly understand as mere humans. Do we really think God would give a finite creature ultimate power over an infinite state?
A lot of times we can barely choose between chicken or fish, and we know what those taste like! Why do we think we can understand enough about Eternity to even begin to think we can make a real choice about it?
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:05 am | |
| | Quote: | | God is an Eternal Being. Right? No beginning, no end...the Uncaused Cause of all creation. By it's very nature, God's Will is also Eternal. |
Had to expand on this one too.
God is Eternal. This physical form we inhabit, and the planet we dwell on, is NOT eternal. It is limited, it has a shelf-life, it has/had a beginning and it will have an end. Everything we understand about this life, even understanding itself, is limited. This makes our free-will limited to the same things we are limited too.
How can limited, finite beings have any control or sway at all on anything eternal?
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:46 am | |
| My last post on the sub-subject of free will:
God gave you free-will for a reason...for a purpose...not to pick your post-death, eternal state...
He gave you free-will as part of His overall Plan & Purpose, to use for His Will...He will use your free-will as a cog in the machine that is His Ultimate Will...
He'll let you choose to go about your life not thinking about Him, if that's what you want, and let whatever happens to you happen based on your choices.
He will NOT let your finite, human choices affect or defeat His Purpose.
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:42 pm | |
| OK, Shawn, seeing as Norm is banned, would you care to fulfill my previous request, if you can. This was originally adressed to Norm, seeing as he was the one who brought it up, but if you can, I'd like to hear this one argument again:
| Eniel wrote: | | There was one argument regarding the greek word "aion" or "aionion"; that it only meant "age" or "a period of time", and not "eternity", thus suggesting that there could be no eternal punishment. Would you please repeat that specific argument for me? |
|
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:52 pm | |
| | Eniel wrote: | OK, Shawn, seeing as Norm is banned, would you care to fulfill my previous request, if you can. This was originally adressed to Norm, seeing as he was the one who brought it up, but if you can, I'd like to hear this one argument again:
| Eniel wrote: | | There was one argument regarding the greek word "aion" or "aionion"; that it only meant "age" or "a period of time", and not "eternity", thus suggesting that there could be no eternal punishment. Would you please repeat that specific argument for me? |
|
I can't, really. Norm was the book/quote hound. I just post how I feel about what I read in the Bible.
The only thing I can recall offering in the whole "aion" debate was this (and this is just me pondering):
Maybe all those places where "forever" and "eternally" are used really do mean "eternal"...maybe they really mean "a definite period of time"...maybe they were used to describe a time period that is simply ongoing for a long period of time...maybe they used either or both terms to simply say "as long a time period and as far into the future as we can possibly imagine"...I don't know, ultimately.
But most of the ones that get pointed to, that I can remember, all had an "until" somewhere after the "forever" or the "eternal"...and if there's an "until", then it can't be "forever".
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:58 pm | |
| | Shawn Of Fire wrote: | | Eniel wrote: | OK, Shawn, seeing as Norm is banned, would you care to fulfill my previous request, if you can. This was originally adressed to Norm, seeing as he was the one who brought it up, but if you can, I'd like to hear this one argument again:
| Eniel wrote: | | There was one argument regarding the greek word "aion" or "aionion"; that it only meant "age" or "a period of time", and not "eternity", thus suggesting that there could be no eternal punishment. Would you please repeat that specific argument for me? |
|
I can't, really. Norm was the book/quote hound. I just post how I feel about what I read in the Bible. |
I see. OK, thanks for your help so far. |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 37
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3115
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:09 pm | |
| | Eniel wrote: | | Shawn Of Fire wrote: | | Eniel wrote: | OK, Shawn, seeing as Norm is banned, would you care to fulfill my previous request, if you can. This was originally adressed to Norm, seeing as he was the one who brought it up, but if you can, I'd like to hear this one argument again:
| Eniel wrote: | | There was one argument regarding the greek word "aion" or "aionion"; that it only meant "age" or "a period of time", and not "eternity", thus suggesting that there could be no eternal punishment. Would you please repeat that specific argument for me? |
|
I can't, really. Norm was the book/quote hound. I just post how I feel about what I read in the Bible. |
I see. OK, thanks for your help so far. |
No problem.
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | no-YOU!
brother of the Son
Age : 37
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 634
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:49 am | |
| | Quote: | Free-will is important to GOD. Very important. It is part of HIS nature.......the nature we ended up with. To lessen in importance that nature of the DEITY......mocks the DEITY. Peeps tend to get touchy when the nature of the DEITY is mocked.
|
No one is denying that man has "free-will". I believe that ALL men will be reconciled to the Father via Christ. In other words, when all of mans sins are purged and he sees God in His glory, he will freely accept God as the Father and Christ as God's Son. As the Bible says "EVERY knee shall bow and tongue confess..." In my mind, for someone to think that man's will is more powerful than God's will is making a mockery of God's diety. To think that God sent His own Son to earth in order to reconcile ALL men unto Himself, then conclude that most people are gonna be eternally seperated from their Father is to conclude that God's plan failed. That is making a mockery of God's diety, IMO.
_________________
Rise up, O LORD, confront them, bring them down; rescue me from the wicked by your sword. Psalm 17:13 |
| | | | | Official Universalism Thread | |
|
| Page 15 of 15 | Goto page : 1 ... 9 ... 13, 14, 15 |
| | Permissions of this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
|
Home 
FAQ 
Search 
Register 
Log in 
