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GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093
|  Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread  Tue May 08, 2007 4:55 pm | |
| Whoa!! 
Bingo Chris!!
I know that but......bingo!!
You said the words!!
Ya' know guys (and metal chicks that read this thread) on the *old* CMR.......I never posted once on/about Universalism on any, any thread. Not once. Never.
But since we've come here to the *new* CMR......i've let myself get sucked into this *neverending, basically meaningless, around and around, circular, time wasting* thread. Ugh........
Shawn sets a good example. I'm going to follow it. I'm (seriously) out of here. I'm with Shawn. I can waste my time elsewhere.
If Norm talks only to himself on this thread.......power to him. Ta-Ta.  (I'm free at last!! Free at last!!)
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
|  | | Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Tue May 08, 2007 5:31 pm | |
| Well, my questions were never answered (I asked several very specific questions) and I have posted tons of scripture to support the salvation of all.
| Quote: | | IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO |
I think this says it all. We don't have to, and shouldn't, base our ideas of God's salvation on opinion. God gave us a book of facts.
I will debate as long as people want to. If not I will continue to ocassionally post on this thread items of interest for those who are following along and studying the doctrines. |
| | | | Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Wed May 09, 2007 11:54 am | |
| This post is more for those who believe in Universalism than for debate. A praise report so to speak. I felt the Lord spoke very clearly to me yesterday concerning the salvation of all. I was studying the parables of Jesus and realized how important the parable of the Lost Sheep is.
In it Jesus states that a man owned one hundred sheep and one became lost. He leaves the ninety-nine and goes searching for the one until he finds it. This shows the search does not end until that one is found! 99 + 1 = 100! Jesus does not stop until he saves 100%. There is none left lost in the end.
What does scripture say God's will is? That all be saved! He leaves none to chance. His will is fully accomplished.
Luke 15
15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and
sinners for to hear him.
15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying,
This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he
lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in
the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until
he find it?
15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his
shoulders, rejoicing.
15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his
friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with
me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in
heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over
ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. |
| | | | Missionary
Joined : 25 Apr 2007
Posts : 127
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Thu May 10, 2007 10:44 am | |
| I'll admit this: I pray for univ salvation. I've asked the Lord to somehow save all and if for some reason that's not possible, I've petitioned for annihilation of the damned.
I can't take a doctrinal position to support univ salv simply because I read too much evidence, even from Jesus' own lips, that appear to support judgment and damnation.
One question i've been unable to answer is ...who or what will we rule and reign over? who will we be priests and kings to? One thought I've considered is, it will be the lost. like...we would live in the Kingdom, they would live without.
the other question I can't answer is ...
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
I'm not certain how this could happen after the millennial reign if only born again believers are there and the lost are in hell.
_________________
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
myspace/missionsfamily |
| | | | Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Thu May 10, 2007 7:19 pm | |
| | Awesome post Missionary! It's good to see people thinking outside the box. I think you presented some thought provoking verses. |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:27 pm | |
| OK Norm, I have a few questions I'd like to ask you.
| rageofcreation wrote: | | The watering down has come from Satan and includes the doctrine of "hell". The pagan word that so many believe in only serves to keep millions away from the Father. |
A curios statement. How?
| rageofcreation wrote: | | We would NOT be reconciled without Christs' death on the Cross. |
If I've understood you correctly, you do believe in some sort of punishment by God over sin, but that it's merely temporarily. If so, my question is: Why would there be need of punishment at all, if God was satisfied with Christ's sacrifice on the cross? Or the other way around, why would there be a need of Christ's death on the cross if God will punish people anyway?
Was not Christ's sacrifice sufficient? If so, why would God punish people at all?
I also have another request. I was slightly active in a disussion on this topic on the previous forum some months back, and remember seeing you post an incredibly long list of arguments supporting your view. I'd like to ask you about a specific one: There was one argument regarding the greek word "aion" or "aionion"; that it only meant "age" or "a period of time", and not "eternity", thus suggesting that there could be no eternal punishment. Would you please repeat that specific argument for me? |
| | | | tohostudios
Age : 48
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 3445
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:43 pm | |
| | For the record Eniel, Norm won't be answering your posts because he has been banned here. |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:32 pm | |
| 
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | tohostudios
Age : 48
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 3445
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:33 pm | |
| | Yeah, no kidding GW... |
| | | | Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:07 am | |
| | tohostudios wrote: | | For the record Eniel, Norm won't be answering your posts because he has been banned here. |
 |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:17 am | |
| | tohostudios wrote: | | For the record Eniel, Norm won't be answering your posts because he has been banned here. |
Oh, I was not aware. Shoot, I was really curios to know more... Oh well. |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:19 am | |
|  @ your
If you chase Norm down.......i'm sure he'd be moooooooore than happy to talk about it.
Just......not here.
Norm = 
(Gee.......that last emote was helpful in getting the *other* thread sent to the catacombs.  Maybe it will work its magic again. *Greg closes his eyes and taps his heels together, "There's no place like the catacombs.......No place like the catacombs"*)
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:48 am | |
| | Can he reply to PMs while banned? |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 36
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3111
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:01 am | |
| I'll take a crack at it:
| Quote: | | If I've understood you correctly, you do believe in some sort of punishment by God over sin, but that it's merely temporarily. If so, my question is: Why would there be need of punishment at all, if God was satisfied with Christ's sacrifice on the cross? |
The "punishment" is a purging. In ALL of us, Christians included, there exists a sin nature...that sin nature will be burned away in God's Presence...any and every aspect of us that is not of God will be purged...burned away. It's is Christ's Sacrifice that makes this even possible. Because of Jesus Blood, which was applied to the door of our hearts (as Roger Martinez once put it), our sin covered.
| Quote: | Or the other way around, why would there be a need of Christ's death on the cross if God will punish people anyway? Was not Christ's sacrifice sufficient? If so, why would God punish people at all?
|
Dude, I used to ask this all the time. "Why was Adam's sin enough to condemn everyone with no action on our part, but Jesus Sacrifice not enough to save everyone unless we "choose" it or "accept" it?"
In other words, we didn't have to do anything to be born under Adam's curse...but we have to jump through some hoop of "acceptance" in order for Jesus' Sacrifice to work. Why?
The conclusion I came to is this:
Jesus Life & Sacrifice fulfilled every one of God's requirements down to the letter. All the sacrifices made by High Priests on behalf of large groups of people no longer had to be made because THE High Priest Sacrificed Himself as a Spotless Lamb to take care of everyone. That's the reason, IMO, Jesus said "It is finished." on the cross. He did not say "Part 1 is done, now it's up to them." He said "Finished." with a period. Done deal. My Blood bought them. We don't have to do anything for this to be a reality. He "finished" the deed and took away "the sin of the world." His Resurrection made Him Lord over Death itself.
Now, the "punishment" part. This "punishment" is a purging. God's Fire (Lake of Fire) will incinerate any part of our nature that is not of Him. Our own "Self" or "Flesh" exists in every one of us on this planet to varying degrees...even in Christians. Christians just see it for what it is and ask God for His Strength in keeping it in check.
This purging/punishment, this burning away anything that is of ourselves & not in line with Him will be a very painful (emotionally & physically), harrowing, humbling experience...there will be "weeping & gnashing of teeth", people crying out in torment as thier Self is burned away from them, leaving only the part that desires after Him...leaving only what God originally intended for each of us.
This is the reconciliation...the "Second Death"...God bringing us back to Him...everything in us that is "in the way", so to speak, of us being in true harmony with God Himself, will die a painful death...leaving His oroginal intended Creation.
This process will not be the same for everyone, because everyone is different...we all have individual issues to be dealt with...but when everything you thought you knew is suddenly ripped from your soul, and all the things you thought were OK & fine are shown for what they really are, when you are truly put in front of a mirror & you watch these things being ripped from you & you feel it...it won't be a happy time.
Other things I noticed on my own are things like:
- In the Bible, where I've seen life mentioned as "eternal", death is never mentioned the same way
- John the Baptist said Jesus was the "Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world"...not "the sin of those who believe".
- As I stated above, Jesus Himself said "It is finished." on the cross. He did not say "I did my part, now they need to finish it."
- We didn't have to do anything to be born under Adam's curse, so we don't have to do anything to be reborn under Christ's Sacrifice - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22
- If it's God's Will that "none should perish", how could any will of man override that? If it's God's Will for us to live, how can our own will say "No." Are we stronger than God? Is our will more powerful than His?
- It says "every knee shall bow & every tongue confess" that Jesus is Lord of all...and I believe it.
- anything followed with an "until", can not be "forever, and ever".
Some people say "God won't force us to do anything, so He won't force us to go to Heaven if we don't want to"...to which I say, I agree...God won't force us to do anything we don't want to do. He let's us make choices, stand or fall, all day everyday while on this earth and we have to live with the results of those choices.
BUT - When God makes Himself truly known...when God lifts the veil that is concealing all of His Wonder & Glory...when God shows His Face...do you think anyone on the face of the earth will be able to stand, let alone turn up thier noses & say "no, I don't believe in You." I tell ya, when God chooses to show Himself, not a knee will go unbowed and not a tongue will go silent...all of our own free will.
You know that feeling when you're trying to quietly talk about someone behind thier back, and the person overhears you and says "What did you say about me?" You have nowhere to hide and can make no excuse at that point...you're busted...that sinking feeling in your gut at that point is realizing how wrong you were...that feeling of trying to make it up to them is humility...try and multiply that by about 10 million and you may be getting close to the idea of how we'll feel when God shows up and says "What did you say about Me?"
Now, I need to go on record (again) saying that I do not believe that the Bible (as we now have it) is 100% un-tampered with. I believe that man, either accidentally or on purpose, has been a part of altering things over the centuries...(there are different reasons for this, but ultimately, I believe that power was the root of all of it. Whoever controlled the church at any given time, held power over the people.)
BUT - It's all we have and we have to look hard to find what truly speaks to our hearts...
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 36
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3111
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:05 am | |
| I need to add that I believe Jesus IS God. God became Man & fulfilled His Own rewuirements becuase He Loves us.
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 am | |
| Eniel...................
Shawn did a good job IMO.
Believe it or not.....Norm is not the be all, and end all, of Universalism.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:31 am | |
| | Shawn Of Fire wrote: | I'll take a crack at it:
| Quote: | | If I've understood you correctly, you do believe in some sort of punishment by God over sin, but that it's merely temporarily. If so, my question is: Why would there be need of punishment at all, if God was satisfied with Christ's sacrifice on the cross? |
The "punishment" is a purging. In ALL of us, Christians included, there exists a sin nature...that sin nature will be burned away in God's Presence...any and every aspect of us that is not of God will be purged...burned away. It's is Christ's Sacrifice that makes this even possible. Because of Jesus Blood, which was applied to the door of our hearts (as Roger Martinez once put it), our sin covered.
| Quote: | Or the other way around, why would there be a need of Christ's death on the cross if God will punish people anyway? Was not Christ's sacrifice sufficient? If so, why would God punish people at all?
|
Dude, I used to ask this all the time. "Why was Adam's sin enough to condemn everyone with no action on our part, but Jesus Sacrifice not enough to save everyone unless we "choose" it or "accept" it?"
In other words, we didn't have to do anything to be born under Adam's curse...but we have to jump through some hoop of "acceptance" in order for Jesus' Sacrifice to work. Why?
The conclusion I came to is this:
Jesus Life & Sacrifice fulfilled every one of God's requirements down to the letter. All the sacrifices made by High Priests on behalf of large groups of people no longer had to be made because THE High Priest Sacrificed Himself as a Spotless Lamb to take care of everyone. That's the reason, IMO, Jesus said "It is finished." on the cross. He did not say "Part 1 is done, now it's up to them." He said "Finished." with a period. Done deal. My Blood bought them. We don't have to do anything for this to be a reality. He "finished" the deed and took away "the sin of the world." His Resurrection made Him Lord over Death itself.
Now, the "punishment" part. This "punishment" is a purging. God's Fire (Lake of Fire) will incinerate any part of our nature that is not of Him. Our own "Self" or "Flesh" exists in every one of us on this planet to varying degrees...even in Christians. Christians just see it for what it is and ask God for His Strength in keeping it in check.
This purging/punishment, this burning away anything that is of ourselves & not in line with Him will be a very painful (emotionally & physically), harrowing, humbling experience...there will be "weeping & gnashing of teeth", people crying out in torment as thier Self is burned away from them, leaving only the part that desires after Him...leaving only what God originally intended for each of us.
This is the reconciliation...the "Second Death"...God bringing us back to Him...everything in us that is "in the way", so to speak, of us being in true harmony with God Himself, will die a painful death...leaving His oroginal intended Creation.
This process will not be the same for everyone, because everyone is different...we all have individual issues to be dealt with...but when everything you thought you knew is suddenly ripped from your soul, and all the things you thought were OK & fine are shown for what they really are, when you are truly put in front of a mirror & you watch these things being ripped from you & you feel it...it won't be a happy time. |
Interesting. Would this be the traditional universalist view on Jesus' death on the cross? |
| | | | Eniel
Joined : 02 Jun 2007
Posts : 33
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:32 am | |
| | GODSWIZARD wrote: | Eniel...................
Shawn did a good job IMO.
Believe it or not.....Norm is not the be all, and end all, of Universalism. |
I know, but he seemed the most enthusiastic one. Thanks Shawn. |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11093
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:41 am | |
| If it was the *flavor of the month* to Norm......be it politics, or religious doctrines, or just......anything that effected his emotions......if it was the *flavor of the month* to him......he was always enthusiastic about it.
To either explicitly or even implicitly say that he *knew more* about something......again anything......is in error.
Don't presume to mistake enthusiasm for knowledge. O.K??
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all....
Last edited by on Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
| | | | Pelata
Age : 36
Joined : 14 Jan 2007
Posts : 3111
| | Subject: Re: Official Universalism Thread Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:41 am | |
| Something I was just pondering:
If the only things UR's & other Christian Denominations disagree on, apparently, is the fate of unbelievers & our "part" in making Jesus Sacrifice work, why is there such a angry backlash by some? Why can UR not be seen simply as another Denomination, like Baptist or Lutheran? Why is it seen as a cult? Everything UR's point to as justifying thier stance is in the Bible...not in any other books or writings. The Catholics point to the same Bible, as do the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Pentecostals, etc....they're all viewed as branches of the same tree, while UR is seen as a distorted, mutated tree-like thing pretending to be a tree.
All Denominations were born out of a disagreement in Biblical interpretation (which is essentially all that we have here), but UR seems to be treated with the same disdain as Moonies & Flying Saucer cults.
UR's agree that no other book but the Bible is God's Word (untouched or otherwise)...UR's agree that Jesus is God...UR's agree that Jesus Sacrifice is the ONLY thing that can get you to the Father...the only disagreement is the fate of unbelievers & whether we have to "act" for Jesus Sacrifice to work (which I personally view like "clapping for Tinkerbell").
Why is this such a huge chasm? Why is that the "deal-breaker", so to speak?
_________________
ORACLE (1990-1993)
http://www.myspace.com/oracleusa |
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