The Christian Metal Realm is a community made up largely of Christians who also happen to love heavy metal! You do not have to be a Christian to join, but you MUST be respectful. |
| | |
| Author | Message |
|---|
scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
 |  Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ...  Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:33 pm | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | | Quote: | It is my personal belief that if you don't understand the history of something, then you flat out don't understand it at all.
|
Well, while I certainly enjoy pouring over the historical charts of theology and biblical studies, and happen to hold a number of books devoted to that very subject, when most people speak of Christian fundamentalism, they are definitely not speaking from a taxonomic perspective.
Instead, I would say that most folks view fundamentalists in the same context that Phillip E. Johnson views them in his publication, "Darwin On Trial", where he essentially classifies them as Christians who are Bible believers.
(Hmmmm.)
To add an air of distain, Mr. Johnson asserts that such Christians are often "uncompromising" literalists... Christians who hold "an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible".
However distainful Mr. Johnson's needling was intended to be, the irony is that Christianity is the religion of a Book, and to be certain, all Christians are called to be Bible believers.
That's right folks... if you believe that the Bible is all that it claims itself to be, whether you care for the term or not, you are a Fundamentalist.
Joe |
Johnson's assessment of Fundamentalism is correct. The 'strict literalist' comment refers to their understanding of certain portions of Scripture. For example, interpreting both the Greek & Hebrew words for 'day' as referring to 24 hrs. The Fundamentalist interprets Scripture largely from the starting point of their own social context instead of starting with the context that Scripture was written in. Both Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe the Bible. The difference lies in the ways in which both camps approach their interpretation of it. To say that the Fundamentalist believes Scripture in greater ways than the Evangelical because they apply their modern understanding to their interpretation of some parts of it is a misnomer. I'm not saying anyone here is saying that, but some Fundamentalists would make such a claim.
Here's a good summary of how we in the Reformed wing of the Evangelical church approach the so-called 'creation wars:
R. Scott Clark Hermeneutics and the Creation Wars |
|   | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:15 pm | |
| Devon Hill,
Do you believe that there exists any object on Earth that is over 3000 years old? If so, what is the object and what is your evidence for its age? |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:13 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Johnson's assessment of Fundamentalism is correct. The 'strict literalist' comment refers to their understanding of certain portions of Scripture. For example, interpreting both the Greek & Hebrew words for 'day' as referring to 24 hrs. The Fundamentalist interprets Scripture largely from the starting point of their own social context instead of starting with the context that Scripture was written in. Both Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe the Bible. The difference lies in the ways in which both camps approach their interpretation of it. |
Well, on Page 4 of "Darwin On Trial", Mr. Johnson discusses this movement of Christian fundamentalists, whose views are, as he says, "based upon an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible", adding that, typically, they "do not merely insist that life was created; they insist that the job was completed in six days, no more than then thousand years ago, and that all evolution since that time has involved trivial modifications rather than basic changes."
On the following page, he presents Mr. William Jennings Bryan as belonging to some other, more enlightened class of fundamentalism, with the essential distinction being that "Bryan was a Bible believer but not an uncompromising literalist, in that he thought that the 'days' of Genesis referred not to 24-hour periods, but to historical ages of indefinite duration."
"[M]any people assume that anyone who advocates 'creation' endorses the 'young earth' position and attributes the existence of fossils to Noah's flood. Clearing up that confusion is one of the purposes of this book."
And so even though Mr. Johnson seems to share your curious position on the Day-Age debate, he is actually in agreement with me in saying that all Bible believers should be viewed as fundamentalists.
As for Fundamentalism, in the context of it being a movement that arose in reaction to Modernism... this sense of the word merely refers to the conservative preservation of an age-old view that pre-dated Modernism by thousands of years.
Joe |
| | | | alldatndensum
Mission Of One
Age : 38
Joined : 03 Jan 2007
Posts : 5515
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:29 pm | |
| To get this back on topic, I don't think that you are losing your faith, Zze. I think you have just hit a point where you need to do some further study in the areas where you have the most questions and seek the answers you need. At the same time, try to get away to the mountains or someplace serene and just spend some time alone with God. Sometimes, it just takes a boost to our spiritual batteries from God's presence to show us where we need to focus our studies and our work for Him. He will lead if you will listen--and getting some intense time alone with the Lord can really help.
Maybe I need to take my own advice........
_________________
"Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else does." |
| | | | scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:09 pm | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | | Quote: | | Johnson's assessment of Fundamentalism is correct. The 'strict literalist' comment refers to their understanding of certain portions of Scripture. For example, interpreting both the Greek & Hebrew words for 'day' as referring to 24 hrs. The Fundamentalist interprets Scripture largely from the starting point of their own social context instead of starting with the context that Scripture was written in. Both Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe the Bible. The difference lies in the ways in which both camps approach their interpretation of it. |
Well, on Page 4 of "Darwin On Trial", Mr. Johnson discusses this movement of Christian fundamentalists, whose views are, as he says, "based upon an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible", adding that, typically, they "do not merely insist that life was created; they insist that the job was completed in six days, no more than then thousand years ago, and that all evolution since that time has involved trivial modifications rather than basic changes."
On the following page, he presents Mr. William Jennings Bryan as belonging to some other, more enlightened class of fundamentalism, with the essential distinction being that "Bryan was a Bible believer but not an uncompromising literalist, in that he thought that the 'days' of Genesis referred not to 24-hour periods, but to historical ages of indefinite duration."
"[M]any people assume that anyone who advocates 'creation' endorses the 'young earth' position and attributes the existence of fossils to Noah's flood. Clearing up that confusion is one of the purposes of this book."
And so even though Mr. Johnson seems to share your curious position on the Day-Age debate, he is actually in agreement with me in saying that all Bible believers should be viewed as fundamentalists.
As for Fundamentalism, in the context of it being a movement that arose in reaction to Modernism... this sense of the word merely refers to the conservative preservation of an age-old view that pre-dated Modernism by thousands of years.
Joe |
OK, so his differentiating between early Fundamentalism (Bryan) and the more recent Falwellian variety that split from Evangelicalism due to Billy Graham's ecumenism in the '50's. Falwell himself changed his view on Catholic ecumenism in '88 when he signed Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT). |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:15 pm | |
| Thanks for that attempt Alldat. 
Good post. Short and sweet. 
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:15 pm | |
| | alldatndensum wrote: | To get this back on topic, I don't think that you are losing your faith, Zze. I think you have just hit a point where you need to do some further study in the areas where you have the most questions and seek the answers you need. At the same time, try to get away to the mountains or someplace serene and just spend some time alone with God. Sometimes, it just takes a boost to our spiritual batteries from God's presence to show us where we need to focus our studies and our work for Him. He will lead if you will listen--and getting some intense time alone with the Lord can really help.
Maybe I need to take my own advice........ |
Zze, maybe God is wanting to strengthen your faith in some areas of Scripture that even science doesn't have 100% iron clad explanations for. |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:20 pm | |
| Scourge said:
| Quote: | | Zze, maybe God is wanting to strengthen your faith in some areas of Scripture that even science doesn't have 100% iron clad explanations for. |
Good post Scourge. 
I'd agree with that.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:14 am | |
| | Quote: | | Zze, maybe God is wanting to strengthen your faith in some areas of Scripture that even science doesn't have 100% iron clad explanations for. |
Bingo. |
| | | | scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:23 am | |
| | The faith element of Christianity would be completely unnecessary if everything in Scripture could be verified scientifically. |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:01 pm | |
| 
@ post above by Scourge.
That said though Zze (if you are actually still following this thread  ).........
That said......the total opposite end of faith......*logical positivism* is......IMO a dead end. Bluntly, at some point, you will need *faith* to--in some way--just carry out your daily living and life activities.
If you need faith just to carry out daily activities......how easy is it......really, how easy is it to place your faith in something like Christianity that fits in sooooooooooo nicely with reality. And here.......I mean *real* rubber to the road, so to speak, reality. Not somebody's idea of what *reality* should be or is.......but what it really, is at the end of the day.
A short clarification from my own life's experience. Before my salvation by CHRIST I was a *logical positivist* to the Nth degree. I took this *verification and logicality and proof* mindset with me into both my investigation of whether or not Christianity was true or just religious, man--made b*******, and then into Christianity itself, as a Christian believer. There is more proof IMO (well researched) that Christianity is real and not man--made BS.......that in the end run......yes, I live by faith, but it is a faith well grounded in proof and verifiable things.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | dOOm&gLOOm
Age : 22
Joined : 04 Jun 2007
Posts : 1477
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:08 pm | |
| | GODSWIZARD wrote: |
@ post above by Scourge.
That said though Zze (if you are actually still following this thread ).........
That said......the total opposite end of faith......*logical positivism* is......IMO
a dead end. Bluntly, at some point, you will need *faith* to--in some
way--just carry out your daily living and life activities.
If you need faith just to carry out daily activities......how easy is it......really, how easy is it to place your faith in something like Christianity that fits in sooooooooooo nicely with reality. And here.......I mean *real* rubber to the road, so to speak, reality. Not somebody's idea of what *reality* should be or is.......but what it really, is at the end of the day.
A
short clarification from my own life's experience. Before my salvation
by CHRIST I was a *logical positivist* to the Nth degree. I took this
*verification and logicality and proof* mindset with me into both my
investigation of whether or not Christianity was true or just
religious, man--made b*******, and then into Christianity itself, as a
Christian believer. There is more proof IMO (well
researched) that Christianity is real and not man--made BS.......that
in the end run......yes, I live by faith, but it is a faith well grounded in proof and verifiable things.
|
Great post, GW, it is good to hear those things about your decision.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ... |
| | | | dOOm&gLOOm
Age : 22
Joined : 04 Jun 2007
Posts : 1477
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:09 pm | |
| | scourge39 wrote: | The faith element of Christianity would be
completely unnecessary if everything in Scripture could be verified
scientifically. |
I absolutely agreee with this. This is a concept I have had to learn the hard way in the past 3 months or so.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ... |
| | | | GlassPrison
Age : 20
Joined : 21 Jul 2007
Posts : 2022
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:49 pm | |
| | Quote: | | That said......the total opposite end of faith......*logical positivism* is......IMO a dead end. Bluntly, at some point, you will need *faith* to--in some way--just carry out your daily living and life activities. |
Explain further, please. How is faith in something an ultimate necessity?
_________________
] |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:51 pm | |
| | GlassPrison wrote: | | Explain further, please. How is faith in something an ultimate necessity? |
I'll throw in my $0.02 reply.
Basically, virtually everything we believe is less than 100% certain. There is nearly always the possibility that what we currently believe is untrue. Therefore, an element of "faith" (or whatever we might call it) is a part of nearly everything we believe. |
| | | | GlassPrison
Age : 20
Joined : 21 Jul 2007
Posts : 2022
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:59 pm | |
| Thanks, I'm just trying to understand what GW means in his use of the word "faith" before I comment more. Just want to make sure we are on the same page before the discussion continues. I might even start a new thread as this one has like 8 topics in it.
_________________
] |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: I´m losing my faith ... Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:33 pm | |
| What Shred said..........
Works good.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | |
| Page 5 of 5 | Goto page :  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
| | Permissions of this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
|
Home 
FAQ 
Search 
Register 
Log in 
