I think the Beast is drawing near

Age : 33 Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 2366

Excellent post, Shred!!! The general point that John is trying to make in Revelation 13 is that any time when government demands allegiance of Christians at the expense of their devotion to Jesus Christ, it is in effect 'antichrist.' In John's day, this was what the Roman Empire was doing. As Shred pointed out, the symbolism of Revelation 13 is taken from the book of Daniel.

"Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. " (Revelation 13:14-15, NIV)

Some scholars also see a parallel between the 'image' described in these verses and King Nebuchadnezzar's image of gold and the refusal of the three Hebrew boys' to bow down to it in Daniel 3. This is very telling, because in that chapter, God sent an angel, which may or may not have been the preincarnate Christ, to preserve them in the midst of persecution while they were going through it.

As a brief aside, the reason I won't come down hard on whether or not it definitely was Jesus in preincarnate form who appeared in the fiery furnace is because the only description of this being comes from the mouth of Nebuchadnezzar himself, who says, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods" (Daniel 3:25, NIV). I take the plural used there, 'gods', to be a reflection of Nebuchadnezzar's polytheistic (belief in many gods) worldview. He's simply describing what he saw as best he could with his limited knowledge. He doesn't have his 'conversion experience' to belief in the one true God until Daniel chapter 4.

As for the significance of the beast's 'mark':

The beast's mark, like the seal of God applied to the Church (Rev. 7:1-3), is no outward tattoo or insignia on the body, but rather a symbol of the beast's ownership and control of his followers' thoughts (forehead) and deeds (right hands). Immediately after this discussion of the beast's mark, the sealed army of God reappears in the company of the Lamb, their champion; and the seal they recieved is interpreted as "having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads" (14:1). Ancient Israelites were to tie the law of God on their foreheads and hands in order to signify that their thoughts and actions were in submission to the Word of the Lord (Deut. 6:8 ). Now the beast, assisted by its false prophet, blasphemously demands the world's universal allegiance. (Triumph of the Lamb: A Commentary on Revelation by Dennis E. Johnson)

Joined : 24 Jul 2007 Posts : 30

Joined : 24 Jul 2007 Posts : 30

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Joined : 24 Jul 2007 Posts : 30

Scripture is given to us for all time(as we know it). This is a fact that makes it unique from other writings of its time.

Romans I think it is states that God uses the foolish of the world to confound the "wise".

Also in the NT it talks about a veil that is pulled over the eyes of those who are not sincere in their search.

Paul said that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration
of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness...

So you tell me...how can all of this be true, and yet it takes the knowledge and intelligence that you imply is needed to 'translate' Scripture?

I sound sure because I feel sure in the Spirit. Also, though I may sound sure, I've expressed that I don't hold those particular beliefs as so solid that it would rock my world to find out that they aren't true. I can only go by where the Spirit has led me in spirit and in truth.

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Age : 78 Joined : 21 Apr 2007 Posts : 1509

Age : 78 Joined : 21 Apr 2007 Posts : 1509

Age : 33 Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 2366

Revelation is comprised of a series of visions that John describes using imagery that was most familiar to both himself and his audience, and that is imagery taken directly from the Old Testament. It was the perfect way for John to 'encode' his critique of the Roman Empire in his day, since the Romans wouldn't have been very familiar with the Old Testament. Otherwise, the Revelation might never have reached the seven Churches in Asia Minor for whom John originally wrote it.

One part of each letter in the New Testament that is crucial to properly understanding it, whether it be Paul's epistles or John's Revelation, is its occassion. The occassion for John's writing the Revelation was to encourage Christians to persevere in their faith while undergoing tremendous persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire (Note that John never suggests that his audience will be delivered from persecution, but instead that God will accompany them through it.).

xxxCainxxx, let me encourage you to listen to Greg Beale's message entitled, "The Symbols of the Book of Revelation & Their Function for the Church, " posted here:

Calvin Seminary's Conference on Preaching Apocalyptic Texts

This will help you to better understand what both Shred and I are trying to say about the symbolic nature of Revelation.

As an aside Shred, and while I'm thinking of it, you may want to pick this up when it comes out in November:

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament Edited by D.A. Carson & G. K. Beale.

Beale's successor at Gordon-Conwell, Sean McDonough, basically whittled his commentary down for the Revelation section. Don't ask me how that's possible, given the mammoth size of Beale's Revelation commentary Cool

I know it's a one-volume commentary, but it should be useful, given its specialized focus.

Play it LOUD!! Age : 51 Joined : 06 Jan 2007 Posts : 11665

This is/has become a flower

Fun to read. Twisted Evil

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all....

Age : 78 Joined : 21 Apr 2007 Posts : 1509

Age : 33 Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 2366

It seems to have a good mix of both seasoned and up-and-coming scholars.

Now if Fee would just ask Bauckham to write a replacement Revelation volume for NICNT Praying

Joined : 24 Jul 2007 Posts : 30

Joined : 18 Jul 2007 Posts : 154

Ok,I think there was a great amount of misunderstanding here,I think it was Gloom that said it seemed as though we were speaking two diff. languages.It was so far back I can't remember(hey ,one thing you gotta give me credit for though,my possibly mis-informed remark really started something) anyway one of you made a remark about trusting govt. funded something or another and that is what led to all of the remarks about the big three auto makers and such.I and a few others I think ,are already notorious for getting off topic .LOL!

Age : 78 Joined : 21 Apr 2007 Posts : 1509

xxxCainxxx or Sabbath Steve,

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Revelation 12-13, since that is the area where this issue of the beast arises. What is Rev 12 saying about the future?

Joined : 18 Jul 2007 Posts : 154

At this point it would basically follow the escha(I'm not typing that word each time LOL!) view.Revelation has long been an interest of mine.My grandmother used to tell me things back when I was a kid,she really was a kind,good Christian woman who meant well,but it scared the crap out of me because I thought it was literally beasts,dragons etc.I went to Sunday school for many years but when I became a teenager I rebelled and just listened to good time stuff like Van Halen,Crue etc.The Black Sabbath song "After Forever" got me to thinking about God again, and then I started listening to Maiden,Priest and finally Christian rock.Metal is full of apocalyptic imagery so I finally began to embrace what I had once ran from.From there I moved on to Prophecy books,talking to others about it,Jack Van Impe etc.I will admit I have never quite understood the timeline of Rev.12 and hey give me a break,escha was and has been THE prevailing view for years.This is not meant to be a political statement but when I really began to start wondering was a few years ago when I found out that my view matched that of....... Tom Delay.Also,the overwhelming pop. of the LB books, my thing has always been "If the world widely accepts it,then maybe some caution should be exercised"

Age : 78 Joined : 21 Apr 2007 Posts : 1509

Joined : 18 Jul 2007 Posts : 154

Let me see if I can answer some of the questions.I used that word eschatology because you had earlier,I honestly did not know what it meant.Being from the so-called Bible belt,yes the pre-millenial dispensation ,as far as I know and as well as I understand it ,has been the prevailing view in the spiritual circles I spent time in.Basically,if you have ever read any of Van Impe's books, then that is what I have ,along with his and others interpretation of the Bible used as sources.But because of the wide acceptance of the LB books and some things I read about a conn with Delay I really began to wonder.Keep in mind that though many denom.are in the Dallas area,fund. and evang.are extremely prevalent here and with org. like TBN are the"movers and shakers" here.

Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:42 pm