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| | I think the Beast is drawing near |    |
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| Author | Message |
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dOOm&gLOOm
Age : 22
Joined : 04 Jun 2007
Posts : 1477
 |  Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near  Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:57 pm | |
| | GODSWIZARD wrote: | After wading through this entire thread just now.........
Points:
1. I don't believe in a *Rapture* (much) anymore. I don't care if it is a pre-, post, or mid-trib event. It is none IMO, because it (probably) ain't going to happen.....as most Americans view that event known as *The Rapture*. If I am wrong.....then I get a free ride upwards, been wrong before. If I am correct.....then I am not going to be fooled and disappointed when it does not happen. A lot of American Christians will be.
2. Here is an incontrovertible eschatological statement: Tick--Tock.
 |
Well it's a hard thing to be dissapointed about ...
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ... |
|  | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:16 am | |
| My .02...
I lean towards the belief in the rapture..mostly because I do believe in an actual short period that precedes the return of Yahushua to this planet, and I do believe that it will be a short period in which believers will be severely persecuted..and that Yah will protect His own. I do not, however, put so much reliance on the idea of the rapture that it affects my daily life. I also do believe that the "mark" will in fact be some sort of microchip. I've read alot of material regarding different opinions of what the mark might be, and I must say the chip makes the most sense. I also find it overly-coincidental that the chip exists in general while simultaneously fulfilling every aspect of the mark necessary to fulfill prophecy. These two things have no forbearance on salvation or faith, and knowing that Yah has everything about me in HIS hands is enough for me.
I have always been a bit of a rebel...though not a hoodlum. I grew up in a non-denom church from the time I was born...however...I did not actually find Christ(in my opinion) until a few years after I left that church. It was then that my eyes began to open to the "little lies" that infest todays "church", and the prophecy Christ gave on the apostate church came into a fuller, and surprisingly immediate view. It was then that I saw that we are indeed deep into the days of the apostate church...and that's not counting the Catholic church...the Beast...whatever you wanna call it. My point is that I want you to know that my belief in the rapture and/or implant-mark is not because I wade in the deception that soaks the modern church like blood. It's because I've weighed the options available and these are the answers that make the most sense to me. I see that there are so many issues that the church is unaware of...Satan, if you will, has the world by the cajonas, and the few who have been blessed with sight fight amongst themselves as do the misguided factions of the "faith", warring over who is correct in details that ultimately will not be revealed until their due time. Yah's people suffer because of a lack of knowledge, yes, but it is also the foolish that He uses to confound the wise. Knowledge has a tendency to build up pride and puffiness. It's a fine line.
So anywayz, yes I believe in the rapture and the mark...no, I don't think it's relevant. That said, I would have to say that I agree that the original post is probably correct that this is leading the way to the mark as an implant.
I was also wondering if those opposed to this idea have taken the same time to read up on this theory as they have their own belief on the subject? |
| | | | GODSWIZARD
Play it LOUD!!
Age : 51
Joined : 06 Jan 2007
Posts : 11824
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:32 am | |
| Your last question.
Me??
Yeah.......
More than you know.
BTW I assumed you mean the Rapture.
_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.
One of the twins: I'm the one who likes it all.... |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:47 am | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: |
I was also wondering if those opposed to this idea have taken the same time to read up on this theory as they have their own belief on the subject? |
Since this is the second or third person to ask this, and since I thought I explained this earlier, I'll lay it all out in finer detail here.
These are all my best estimates...
First, I have heard hundreds of sermons on eschatology, specifically those promoting the standard pre-trib, pre-millenial view. Two of the churches I spent most of my life attending were, shall we say, quite interested in the topic and the pastor's favorite sermon topic was on the "end times" and explaining how current events were tied into this particular "end times" scenario. So, yes, I've heard literally hundreds of sermons on this topic, many of which dealt with this very issue of microchips.
Second, for the first roughly 25 years of my life I believed in a pre-trib, pre-millenial rapture. Israel became a nation in 1948, marking the generation that would see the rapture, and so on and so forth. We all know the drill. I could defend that particular eschatological view so well that I had family and friends who would constantly be asking me questions about the topic. I taught a class at my church on the topic.
Third, I would guess that I've read upwards of 20 books promoting the pre-trib, pre-millenial view. Some of those books discussed this implant issue in great detail.
Fourth, during that entire time I was so knowledgable about my own views on eschatology, I knew very little about other views on the subject. I was so convinced that the view I held was correct, I never bothered to learn about the alternatives.
Fifth, it was after a close friend of mine convinced me to start investigating other approaches to eschatology that I did so. After a few years of that, I slowly shifted away from my earlier beliefs.
All this is my own personal experience and should not be taken to imply anything other than the fact that it is my own personal experience.
So to answer the original question, I would say "Yes." I have taken the time to read up on this and other theories related to eschatology.
I've asked this question to Sabbath Steve earlier but did not see a reply, so I'll ask it again to xxxCainxxx and anyone else: Have you taken the time to thoroughly examine other approaches to eschatology than the view you currently hold? |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:39 am | |
| | Sir Shred A Lot wrote: |
I've asked this question to Sabbath Steve earlier but did not see a reply, so I'll ask it again to xxxCainxxx and anyone else: Have you taken the time to thoroughly examine other approaches to eschatology than the view you currently hold? |
Yes. Many. Some are absurd, some are so overly-spiritual that it escapes the simplicity that Yah often uses to avert the "wisdom" of the "wise".
fyi...I personally don't care, but there has been mention of "tone" being less than friendly on this topic...and this post I quoted borders that tone...
..the only reason I mention it is because I am very leary about "approaches" that cause one to sound...almost defensive...when discussing it. As I said in my post, my beliefs are a result of much searching. I grew up hearing the traditional and modern views of the "church"...and was brought out of it by the hand of God. HE is my teacher and witness to truth when my eyes or ears come across it. It is the Holy Spirit that keeps us from the confusion of thousands of theories and viewpoints. It is also the Spirit that distinguishes between a topic worth fighting for, and one that we(I) do not need to fully understand until it's appointed time. There is no point in such a topic becoming an argument, as this has no effect whatsoever on salvation or eternity...or even on our well-being here on earth for that matter. |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:27 am | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | Sir Shred A Lot wrote: |
I've asked this question to Sabbath Steve earlier but did not see a reply, so I'll ask it again to xxxCainxxx and anyone else: Have you taken the time to thoroughly examine other approaches to eschatology than the view you currently hold? |
Yes. Many. Some are absurd, some are so overly-spiritual that it escapes the simplicity that Yah often uses to avert the "wisdom" of the "wise".
fyi...I personally don't care, but there has been mention of "tone" being less than friendly on this topic...and this post I quoted borders that tone...
|
OK, now I'm totally at a loss to see what's being said here. The post you quoted is mine and I'm not seeing how the quote of mine you posted is close to "being less than friendly." I simply asked the same basic question that you asked. What is unfriendly about that? Here is your question from earlier:
| Quote: | I was also wondering if those opposed to this
idea have taken the same time to read up on this theory as they have
their own belief on the subject? |
So can you explain why my quote is "less than friendly" while yours apparently is not? |
| | | | Black Rider
Man in Morph
Age : 40
Joined : 08 Apr 2007
Posts : 8626
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:30 am | |
| | Just read the Fee baby. He'll explain it all. |
| | | | scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:41 am | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | Yes. Many. Some are absurd, some are so overly-spiritual that it escapes the simplicity that Yah often uses to avert the "wisdom" of the "wise". |
You seem very quick to both judge and dismiss other views that differ from your own. Which views are you referring to when you say this? |
| | | | alldatndensum
Mission Of One
Age : 38
Joined : 03 Jan 2007
Posts : 5515
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:50 am | |
| I think that this would best go in the Bible study & prayer forum myself.
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"Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else does." |
| | | | scourge39
Age : 33
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 2375
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:17 am | |
| | Well, initially the author of the thread was pointing out a news article he read. Depending on the direction it takes, I believe it could fit either here or the Prayer & Bible study forum. |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 am | |
| | Sir Shred A Lot wrote: | | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | Sir Shred A Lot wrote: |
I've asked this question to Sabbath Steve earlier but did not see a reply, so I'll ask it again to xxxCainxxx and anyone else: Have you taken the time to thoroughly examine other approaches to eschatology than the view you currently hold? |
Yes. Many. Some are absurd, some are so overly-spiritual that it escapes the simplicity that Yah often uses to avert the "wisdom" of the "wise".
fyi...I personally don't care, but there has been mention of "tone" being less than friendly on this topic...and this post I quoted borders that tone...
|
OK, now I'm totally at a loss to see what's being said here. The post you quoted is mine and I'm not seeing how the quote of mine you posted is close to "being less than friendly." I simply asked the same basic question that you asked. What is unfriendly about that? Here is your question from earlier:
| Quote: | I was also wondering if those opposed to this
idea have taken the same time to read up on this theory as they have
their own belief on the subject? |
So can you explain why my quote is "less than friendly" while yours apparently is not? |
All I was referring to was the tone. This is the tone that I felt when reading your post. If a mildly defensive tone isn't what you intended, so be it. It was just an FYI. If I'm the only person that sensed it, then maybe I'm just being sensitive. I apologize if that offended you. |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:25 am | |
| | scourge39 wrote: | | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | Yes. Many. Some are absurd, some are so overly-spiritual that it escapes the simplicity that Yah often uses to avert the "wisdom" of the "wise". |
You seem very quick to both judge and dismiss other views that differ from your own. Which views are you referring to when you say this? |
Well, I can tell you that I still have no idea what the other beliefs in this thread are, other than my own, so rest assured it didn't refer to anything here.. |
| | | | dOOm&gLOOm
Age : 22
Joined : 04 Jun 2007
Posts : 1477
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:34 am | |
| I think he just is asking what specifically you have looked into and read about/researched other than what you currently believe.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ... |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:07 pm | |
| | dOOm&gLOOm wrote: | | I think he just is asking what specifically you have looked into and read about/researched other than what you currently believe. |
Jeez I really couldn't specify...you're talking things I started investigating over 10 years ago. I have no specific authors or books in mind...just various info here and there. The most recent was several months back..it had something to do with the Mark being associated with the fact that Saturday is the real Sabbath(which I do believe), and from what I remember stated that observing Sunday as the day of rest actually being the mark...which is ludicrous. Ignorance truly is bliss..and to think that millions of christians will go to hell because they were unaware of the Sabbath snafoo is just naive...just for example.
So what is it that you guys believe as far as the mark? (Speaking to Shred mostly..) |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:26 pm | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: |
Jeez I really couldn't specify...you're talking things I started investigating over 10 years ago. I have no specific authors or books in mind...just various info here and there. The most recent was several months back..it had something to do with the Mark being associated with the fact that Saturday is the real Sabbath(which I do believe), and from what I remember stated that observing Sunday as the day of rest actually being the mark...which is ludicrous. Ignorance truly is bliss..and to think that millions of christians will go to hell because they were unaware of the Sabbath snafoo is just naive...just for example.
So what is it that you guys believe as far as the mark? (Speaking to Shred mostly..) |
No, I don't think the mark of the beast has anything to do with the Sabbath issue. I have a different view on the Sabbath issue than your own, but I'll stay focused on the "mark of the beast" topic so we don't get sidetracked.
So what do I think the "mark of the Beast" is?
The first thing I would point out is that John (the author of Revelation) is describing visions that he had. If we look at the first verse of chapters 12, 13, and 14 - which is the section where the "mark" appears - we can see that John is talking about things he saw, ecstatic visions. So I don't think it's as if he's describing film footage of future events that have yet to take place. He is seeing visions and putting them into words, and these visions are conveying theological truths about John's world.
So, for example, the first verse of Revelation 12 says this:
| Quote: | | And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. |
So John sees a woman and describes her appearance, but he doesn't believe, nor does he expect his readers to believe, that he is seeing actual footage of a future event in which a woman will come wearing a 12-starred crown, etc. This vision of a woman is conveying a truth about who the people of God are. The woman, in fact, represents the people of God throughout their history up until the time of John. I think this is made clear in several ways. Rev 12:5 would seem clearly to be a reference to the birth of Jesus, the Messiah of God's people. The woman (the people of God) gives birth to the Messiah, Jesus, who will rule the nations. This is alluding to Psalm 2:9, a verse that was often used by Christians in reference to Jesus. And then the second half of Rev 12:5 describes the ascension of Jesus, like what we read in the first chapter of Acts.
So then there's this dragon (Satan) that is battling against God's people, persecuting them throughout their history. The dragon was conquered through the death of Jesus and continues to be defeated by followers of Jesus (Rev 12:10-11). Chapter 12 is just a vivid description of the spiritual battle that has taken place between Satan and the true followers of God throughout history. It uses imagery of dragons, eagles, a woman, etc. to convey this truth, but we (I) don't take those references as being to actual dragons, eagles, and women. They're not meant to be understood that way, IMO.
Now look at the first verse of Rev 13:
| Quote: | And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
|
Again, John says that he is describing something that he saw. It's quite an odd description, but he's trying to convey the sense of what he witnessed in his vision. This whole chapter is devoted to describing the "beast," and it seems clear to me that John is describing things associated with the Roman Empire.
The description of the beast in Rev 13 would appear to be John's way of saying that the Roman Empire is somehow related to the beasts described in Daniel 7. Let's compare the two:
Rev 13:1-2:
| Quote: | 1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. |
Daniel 7:3-8:
| Quote: | 3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.
4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it.
5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, 'Arise, devour much flesh.'
6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. |
Leopard, bear, lion. If you add up the heads of the four beasts in Daniel, it would total seven heads. It seems obvious to me that John is trying to allude to Daniel in order to communicate his message.
I think John is saying, "Hey, I'm describing that fourth beast from Daniel, the one that was worse than all the others but yet has many of the traits of all of those beasts in Daniel. And this horrible beast is the Roman Empire."
Then we see in the rest of Rev 13 things that we can associate with the Roman Empire. In Rev 13:3 the beast is supposedly killed, but is healed. This finds a parallel in the first-century with the belief among some people that Nero would return from the dead to rule the empire again. And so on throughout the chapter.
Before I get to the specific "mark of the beast," which comes at the end of Rev. 13, let's look at Revelation 14. That chapter opens like this:
| Quote: | | Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. |
So just like the previous two chapters and visions, John is telling his readers that he is describing a vision. He saw this, but again I don't think he is attempting to describe film footage of events that will happen in the future. The imagery he is talking about is conveying a deep theological truth that is far more significant than a big group of people walking around with "YHWH" or something written on their foreheads.
To have the Father's name written on their foreheads is to say that they are secure in their redemption as God's people.
Now to try to bring it full circle and wrap up what is already too lengthy of a post...
Just as I do not think John was describing a future time when a literal 144,000 people would be walking on the literal Mount Zion with the actual name of God really written on their foreheads, I do not think John was trying to say that the mark of the beast was something that would happen in the future and involve a literal mark of some sort on the actual right hand or forehead of every inhabitant of the earth.
I am not absolutely certain exactly what John meant by his reference to the "mark of the beast." There are a lot of possibilities. But whatever it was, he was trying to convey the sense of devotion to the Roman Empire over devotion to Christ. It may have been simply a way to contrast the people of God (marked on the forehead in Rev 14) with those who do not belong to God. Often in the Roman Empire, slaves would be marked or branded, so it could be John's way of saying that the Beast was attempting to make everyone his own property. The Roman Empire in many places required that the Emperor be worshipped, so this might be John's way of describing that attempt by the Roman emperors to have everyone devoted to them. And in the case of Christians, no devotion could replace the devotion to Christ.
I don't think John intended his reference to the "mark of the beast" to be to a literal mark. It was his figurative way of describing the dominance of the Roman Empire in every area of life, economically, religiously, politically, etc. Christians, according to John, are not to be marked by their devotion to the Empire but by their devotion to God and his son, Jesus.
That's a rambling answer, and I haven't bothered to proofread it too closely, but I hope it gives a better sense for my general approach to the book of Revelation. |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:30 pm | |
| | I didn't want to quote due to length..but what I find interesting is that based on everything you posted, I would think the implant would be what you believe...it would fall right in line with the imagery that was used as well as the difficulty in explaining it correctly due to the time period.. |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:45 pm | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | I didn't want to quote due to length..but what I find interesting is that based on everything you posted, I would think the implant would be what you believe...it would fall right in line with the imagery that was used as well as the difficulty in explaining it correctly due to the time period.. |
I think the fundamental difference between us is that you think Revelation is trying to describe events that will happen in the future (in chapters 12-14 and from John's perspective) and that John is trying to use allegorical language to describe those future events.
I don't think that is what John was doing. |
| | | | xxxCainxxx
Joined : 24 Jul 2007
Posts : 30
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:47 pm | |
| | Sir Shred A Lot wrote: | | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | I didn't want to quote due to length..but what I find interesting is that based on everything you posted, I would think the implant would be what you believe...it would fall right in line with the imagery that was used as well as the difficulty in explaining it correctly due to the time period.. |
I think the fundamental difference between us is that you think Revelation is trying to describe events that will happen in the future (in chapters 12-14 and from John's perspective) and that John is trying to use allegorical language to describe those future events.
I don't think that is what John was doing. |
Actually yes and no...I think he was describing events starting before his day and leading into eternity, thus inclusive of the future. This should be fairly evident if nothing else by the very last Chapter...considering we do not yet make annual visits to Jerusalem nor does Yah himself reside with us..just as a small example. |
| | | | dOOm&gLOOm
Age : 22
Joined : 04 Jun 2007
Posts : 1477
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:21 pm | |
| Sir Shred A Lot: Thanks for posting that ... I have actually read articles and seen TV specials on this subject before, but as I stated earlier I am no expert. It has all been in passing.
I tend to view the entire message of the Bible to be allegorical and full of symbolism ... so I lean towards your way of thinking. For me to actually say what I think, though would be impossible since I haven't truly done enough research to develop a personal view on the subject. Maybe I will do so one day.
I know not everyone is legalistic or literalistic (if that's a word), but sometimes it does seem like they are, doesn't it? I'm glad to hear your views on the subject and I'd love to hear more from you, scourge, on what you think about it.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ... |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: I think the Beast is drawing near Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:22 pm | |
| | xxxCainxxx wrote: | | Actually yes and no...I think he was describing events starting before his day and leading into eternity, thus inclusive of the future. This should be fairly evident if nothing else by the very last Chapter...considering we do not yet make annual visits to Jerusalem nor does Yah himself reside with us..just as a small example. |
Well, that's why I specificed chapters 12-14 of Revelation. Do you think those chapters are describing past, present, or future events? I assumed you thought they were referring to future events. |
| | | | | I think the Beast is drawing near | |
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