The Christian Metal Realm is a community made up largely of Christians who also happen to love heavy metal! You do not have to be a Christian to join, but you MUST be respectful. |
| | Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... |    |
| | | Author | Message |
|---|
VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
 |  Subject: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis....  Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:10 am | |
| An Extremely Literal Interpretation of the Bible
As shown in the example from Mr. Johnson's publication, "Darwin On Trial", the Fundamentalist view is often misrepresented.
Mr. Johnson defines Fundamentalists as Christians who take "an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible".
I find this statement to be somewhat misguided, and most certainly contemptuous. The implication is that Fundamentalists are either unable (dumb) or unwilling (stubborn) to acknowledge the splendid subtleties of literary prose.
But let us take for example, Psalm 114:4, where it is said that "the mountains skipped like rams, the hills like lambs."
We would expect "an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible" to hold that the mountains and hills described in this passage were fully animated, literally jumping and moving around with the same agility as a four-legged beast.
Do the Fundamentalists believe such a thing?
Hardly!
The Eucharist
An even better example is that of the Eucharist.
The Catholic church traditionally holds the view of Transubstantiation, which constitutes a literal interpretation of the phrase, "This is my body".
In contrast, Fundamentalist churches are commonly known to hold the Memorial view, which constitutes a non-literal interpretation of Jesus' statement.
And so you begin to get the impression that Mr. Johnson has overstated the facts, casting an air of doubt upon the opposition, presumably to enhance and advance his own views on the Genesis narrative.
The Job Was Completed In Six Days
Mr. Johnson contends that Fundamentalists "do not merely insist that life was created; they insist that the job was completed in six days, no more than ten thousand years ago, and that all evolution since that time has involved trivial modifications rather than basic changes."
In my view, this is a fair assessment of the Fundamentalist position, for there is no qualification given to the term "days".
But on the following page, Mr. Johnson adds a qualification when he presents the typical Fundamentalist view as being one that views the "days" of Genesis as 24-hour periods.
This is another misguided statement, which doesn't even correspond with his own example... that of William Jennings Bryan.
William Jennings Bryan
"Bryan was a Bible believer but not an uncompromising literalist, in that he thought that the 'days' of Genesis referred not to 24-hour periods but to historical ages of indefinite duration."
Well, I did a little reseach of my own, and it turns out that the venerable Mr. Bryan was not only a Fundamentalist, but he was considered to be one of the great leaders of that entire movement.
And so while Mr. Johnson seems to suggest that Mr. Bryan was not your typical Fundamentalist (meaning a dumb, stubborn, ignorant person), his point is quite contradictory, because, as a celebrated leader of that movement, Mr. Bryan should be more appropriately viewed as the prime example of a Fundamentalist.
Mr. Bryan's theological beliefs were the rule and not the exception, but Mr. Johnson curiously seems to turn this fact on its head.
More to the point, as in the case of Mr. Bryan, it is instructive to note that the Fundamentalist view does not necessarily believe that the days of Genesis were 24-hour days, as we know them today.
How Is A Day Measured?
Although, for the sake of convenience, we tend to think that our days are measured in increments of 24-hours, it should be pointed out that 24-hours do not necessarily constitute a day.
A "day" is actually measured by the speed of the earth's rotation, relative to the position of the sun. Each full rotation of the earth equals one day.
As for the time that elapses during this duration, we divide it by 24 and call it 24-hours, but time is a physical property, and Physics teaches us that the rate at which time elapses is relative and inseparably tied to the rate at which the universe expands.
In other words, the faster the universe expands, the faster time will elapse. And should the expansion of the universe slow down, so too will the rate at which time elapses.
Incidentally, in speaking of God's sovereignty, the Scriptures often illustrate the fact that God is the one who stretches out the heavens (Job 9:8, Ps. 104:2, Isa. 40:22, Zech. 12:1).
A Stubbornly Persistent Illusion
Now, from our perspective, we live in what Einstein called "a stubbornly persistent illusion". As earth-bound creatures, we are fixed to vantage point that allows us only to reflect upon on the past and hope in the future.
But from God's unique vantage point, the vantage point of eternity, he is able to make known "the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come" (Isa. 46:10). God can see it all, because he is not subject to the physical restraints of this universe. In fact, he enjoys a dimensionality that places him outside our physical universe, and seats him at the throne room of eternity.
These insights may be useful in understanding the Genesis account.
My Own Opinion
As for me, I agree that the "days" of Genesis refer not necessarily to 24-hour periods, but could possibly refer to historical ages of relative and finite duration. To be more precise, I would suggest that the the duration of each day was measured under the same rule that we measure our days today. In other words, my suggestion is that the duration of each day was gauged by the speed of the earth's rotation, relative to the position of the sun. Each full rotation of the earth equaled one day.
As for the precise duration of these days, I'm inclined to share the view of Dr. Gerald Schroeder, who believes both in Physics and in the accuracy of Scripture, and who would quickly point to the verse in Scripture that teaches, "A word aptly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver" (Prov. 25:11). The scientific view, he calls, "The Silver Dish View", and the biblical view, he calls, "The Golden Apple View". And he would probably recite that famous poem of John Godfrey Saxe, "The Six Blind Men of Indostan".
Additional Data
Here is some interesting data contained in a book written by Nathan Aviezer, entitled, "In the Beginning". Mr. Aviezer is a professor of Physics at Bar-Ilan University in Israel.
| Quote: | When the solar system was first formed (the event associated with the second day of creation), the number of hours in a day was far fewer than 24 and the number of days in a year was far greater than 365. Moreover, the seasons had little resemblence to the present-day succession of spring, summer, autumn, and winter. It was only relatively recently that the orbit of the Earth reached its present configuration. This configuration is responsible for our day of 24-hours, our year of 365 days, and the mild seasons found in most areas of the planet.
The fixing of the seasons, the days, and the years by the present-day relative positions of the sun, the moon, and the earth is the event associated with the fourth day of creation. This is the meaning of the biblical passage "Let there be luminaries in the heaven . . . for the seasons, for the days and the years." (Gen. 1:14).
The moon has played a central role in fixing the length of the day and the number of days in the years. Moreover, according to the well-established Milankovitch theory, the moon's gravitational attraction is responsible for the present-day mild climate that has been so conducive to man's unprecedented cultural, intellectual, and technological development. Therefore, the biblical text that lists the moon among the astronomical bodies that determine "the seasons, the days and the years" is consistent with currect scientific knowledge.
Like all astronomic bodies, the sun and the moon are described both by their true size and by their apparent size. It is an astronomical fact that the apparent sizes of the sun and the moon are exactly the same. Thus, the biblical passage that describes the sun and moon as "the two large luminaries" (Gen. 1:16), as if they were the same size, may be understood as referring to their apparent sizes, which are in fact exactly equal. The subsequent biblical passage that describes the sun as "the large luminary" and the moon as "the small luminary" refers to their true sizes. |
Last edited by on Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:14 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|  | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:02 am | |
| What scientific evidence is there that the speed of the Earth's rotation is significantly different now than it was at some earlier point in the last 10,000 years?
Also, I'm confused about why you would cite that last piece from that Aviezer guy. He says that days were SHORTER than 24 hours. But it sounded like you were trying to say that your belief in a 6-day creation was belief in something that took longer than 144 hours to complete. |
| | | | bgast1
Age : 57
Joined : 06 Apr 2007
Posts : 248
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:35 pm | |
| Interesting, and thanks for starting a new thread. Perhaps this could be stickied and it would be easier to refer back to, rather than me coming along after considerable time away, and starting a new thread.
But then I supposed that the argument could be made for me not being so much of a stranger.
Perhaps another thing that would help here is a clearer understanding on innerrancy. I have always held a very literal view on the Bible. I have always believed that our translations are just fine, and if God says it, I believe it, and that settles it for me. Just like in that old song that I used to hear on that stuffy old radio station that I was only allowed to listen to because rock n roll and metal were evil. |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:44 pm | |
| | Quote: | What scientific evidence is there that the speed of the Earth's rotation is significantly different now than it was at some earlier point in the last 10,000 years?
Also, I'm confused about why you would cite that last piece from that Aviezer guy. He says that days were SHORTER than 24 hours. But it sounded like you were trying to say that your belief in a 6-day creation was belief in something that took longer than 144 hours to complete. |
The reason you're probably confused by my stand is that I am not dogmatic on the subject. Where others may have chosen a side in the Day-Age debate, I am more inclined to admit that there are great arguments on both sides of the fence, and anyone who claims to have it all firgured out is, at best, mistaken.
By the way, you'll notice that I never said that the speed of the Earth's rotation has changed. All I said is that it is by the rate of the earth's rotation that a day is accurately measured. Each full rotation equals the elapse of one day.
To conclude that a day has always been exactly 24-hours is really using reverse logic, because days are not measured by the elapse of time. In fact, it is quite the oposite: The elapse of time is gauged by the rotation of the earth, relative to the sun. Therefore, an hour is calculated by taking the duration of time that it takes the earth to complete a full rotation, and dividing that duration of time by 24.
My posting of the data provided by Mr. Aviezer was simply meant to show that a day does not necessarily refer to a 24-hour day, as we know it today.
And yet these were 24-hour days, in that an hour is simply the duration of a day, divided by 24.
And so, yes, even the 21-hour day cited by Aviezer can be understood as a 24-hour day. It merely depends on your chosen denominator.
In the end, it always comes down to a matter of perspective.
You see, even if it took an infinite duration (an age, if you prefer) for the earth to complete one full rotation, an atomic clock bound upon the earth would show, at the end of the day, that only 24-hours had elapsed.
In this way, the vantage point of science seems to capture, in slow motion, a glimpse of what the Bible summarizes in just 31 verses of Scripture, and over a duration of six days.
This is where the observations of folks such as Dr. Gerald Schroeder, and even Mr. Barry Setterfield, become most interesting.
But the bottom line is that no one can afford to become dogmatic on this subject, because there are certainly compelling arguments on both sides.
For example, in challenge to the Age View, how does one reconcile the problem of death before Adam's sin? As a student of this subject, I am aware of no satisfactory explanation.
And if these were really ages, then how did the vegetation that was created on Day 3 survive to Day 4 (the day that sunlight was diffused into the earth's atmosphere). The basic principles of photosynthesis tell us that vegetation cannot live without sunlight.
Such questions seem to cast doubt on the Age View.
And it is on this note that I have something of a problem with Dr. Shroeder's theory, for he contends that there was death prior to Adam's sin, and also that there existed a race of sub-humans prior to the creation of Adam.
But if you believe in the Gap Theory, as I most certainly do, Scripture does seem to furnish one certain and indefinite duration of time between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2, prior to Day One, and it is quite possible that Death was introduced to the universe during this duration, on account of the reputed originator of sin, Satan himself, and, for all we know of that former world, there may well have existed some primordial and sinful precursor to mankind, which would have preceded Adam, and which would have held no genealogical relationship to Adam or his descendants.
The Hebrew Midrash, a compilation of opinions that dates back to the Babylonian Captivity, contains the following data:
| Quote: | | Nor is this world inhabited by man the first of things earthly created by God. He made several other worlds before ours, but he destroyed them all, because He was pleased with non until He created ours. |
Elsewhere we come upon the writings of Simeon ben Jochai, a student of Akiba ben Joseph. This student is reputed to have been the author of the Sefer Hazzohar, or the "Zohar" as it is often called. This work records the opinions that were held toward the end of the 1st Century, and contains the following commentary on Gen. 2:4-6:
| Quote: |
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 2:4)
. . .
Whenever there is written the word "this" (given in Hebrew) the previous words are put aside, [which in this case refers back to] the destruction which is signified in verse 2 of chapter one. The earth was "formless" and "empty" (given in Hebrew). These indeed are the worlds of which it is said that the blessed God created them and destroyed them, and on that account, the earth was formless and empty. |
By the way, I chose these particular examples to show that this is an opinion that existed long before the Geological Age.
Joe |
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:48 pm | |
| | VALEDICTION wrote: | The reason you're probably confused by my stand is that I am not dogmatic on the subject. Where others may have chosen a side in the Day-Age debate, I am more inclined to admit that there are great arguments on both sides of the fence, and anyone who claims to have it all firgured out is, at best, mistaken.
By the way, you'll notice that I never said that the speed of the Earth's rotation has changed. All I said is that it is by the rate of the earth's rotation that a day is accurately measured. Each full rotation equals the elapse of one day. |
Well, you'd have to say, based on your definition above, that the speed of the Earth's rotation has changed if you were to say that at some point in the past a "day" was something significantly different than its current approximately 24 hours. The only other alternative is to say that the size of the Earth is different now than it was at some point in the past. A "day" is calculated by the rotation of the Earth on its axis, so one rotation of the Earth equals one "day."
Explain to me, then, how a day on Earth would be something different than 24 hours if we assume that its rotation speed is the same now as it was in the past AND the Earth is the same size as it always has been. |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:51 pm | |
| It is the opinion of some Physicists that, on the other end of a blackhole, the universe must somehow deposit all of that debris that has been collected by the blackhole. The location of these astronomical deposits is believed to change sporadically and continually.
Besides their disposal of atronomical debris, and their apparent tendency to roam, another unique attribute of these locations is that time is believed to temporarily elapse at a quickened pace within the vicinity of each deposit, so that if you were ever enabled to stand within its limits, the events just outside of that vicinity would move forward in such super-slow motion that everything just outside the area would appear to stand perfectly still. Meanwhile, the events inside that area would would appear to continue on at their normal pace.
Conversely, from the outside looking in, the events within the confines of that area would appear to zip forward at an incredibly super speed, so fast that the outside observer would hardly be able to discern the particulars of those things transpiring within.
In other words, according to the principles of modern Physics, a time-warp is believed to occur at the other end of a blackhole.
That such an anomaly in time could occur on the face of planet earth is an idea that has been advanced within the realm of science fiction.
[In middle school, I read a fascinating book by William Sleator, entitled, "Singularity", a novel that was apparently based on these very principles of Physics.]
http://www.amazon.com/Singularity-William-Sleator/dp/customer-reviews/0140375988
However, it is interesting to consider this theory in light of Joshua 10, the day that the sun and moon stood still. When you read the account, there are three things of note:
(1) The Amorites are said to have been thrown into confusion (Josh. 10:10). This confusion may have occurred with the initial manifestation of the anomaly in time that apparently had taken place here.
(2) Large missiles are said to have been hurled from the sky, falling upon the Amorites (Josh. 10:11). These large missiles may potentially have been the astronomical debris that had been collected by a blackhole.
(3) The Scriptures report that the sun stood still, and the moon stopped: The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down for about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a man (Josh. 10:13-14). From their vantage point within the confines of this time anomaly, it appeared to everyone that the outside fixtures, such as the sun and the moon, came to an absolute stand still... and they did, according to that particular vantage point within the anomaly.
Notice, incidentally, the qualifier in verse 14: "There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a man."
This is not to say that never before had a time-warp occurred on the earth, but that never before had the Lord allowed such an anomaly to occur at the mere behest of a man.
And in this way, a day on Earth could certainly be something different than 24-hours, even assuming that its rotation speed is the same now as it was in the past, and that the Earth is the same size as it always has been.
Within the confines of this particular anomaly, the day recorded in Joshua 10 lasted about 48-hours, while the time outside the anomaly continued to elapse at the usual 24-hour rate that we all know and love.
Joe
|
| | | | Sir Shred A Lot
Age : 78
Joined : 21 Apr 2007
Posts : 1509
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:10 am | |
| I still don't feel like I understand your view. Is that what you're saying you believe - that this black hole phenomenon is tied into the age of the Earth?
That still has nothing to do with the length of a day issue that we were discussing earlier. A "day" would still be a "day" regardless of this black hole theory. A "day" has to do with the Earth's rotation, nothing to do with black holes. |
| | | | VALEDICTION
Joined : 13 Apr 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:55 pm | |
| | Quote: | I still don't feel like I understand your view. Is that what you're saying you believe - that this black hole phenomenon is tied into the age of the Earth?
That still has nothing to do with the length of a day issue that we were discussing earlier. A "day" would still be a "day" regardless of this black hole theory. A "day" has to do with the Earth's rotation, nothing to do with black holes. |
Precisely my point.
I happen to believe that the six days elapsed at a rate that was pretty similar to what we know today, and that length of a full day was gauged by the rotation of the earth on its axis, in relation to the sun. Each full rotation equaled one day.
And in this way, my view is consistent with that of Creation science.
However, I also believe its possible that God could certainly have manipulated time in order to fulfill his creative purpose. Indeed, we find in Scripture that God enjoys a unique ability to manipulate time. This may be observed at Exodus 4:6-7, when the Lord not only caused Moses' hand to become infected with leprosy, but he manipulated time in such a way that Moses' hand instantly developed the external indications of full blown leprosy. And likewise at John 2:7-10, when Jesus not only caused the water to turn into an organic juice, but he manipulated time in such a way that this juice instantly fermented into a fine wine, aged to perfection. These are processes that would otherwise have taken years to accomplish, and yet God accomplished them in just a moment of time.
And not only that, but in the case of Moses' hand, notice that God was able to instantly recoil time, in order to restore the hand back to its original condition. A neat trick, indeed.
Notice further that these manipulations of time were executed with exacting precision. In the case of Moses in Exodus 4:6-7, his hand was affected, and only his hand. In the case of Jesus in John 2:7-10, the water was affected, and only the water.
And then there is this case of Joshua 10, where it appears that God had allowed a "wormhole" (if you'll pardon the expression) to encapsulate the battlefield, and only the battlefield, forming a singularity through which God allowed missiles of dense astronomical debris to pummel the Amorites. It is said that "more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites" (v. 11).
And besides this piece of the episode, it would appear that God manipulated time in such a way that, from the perspective of those on the battlefield, the outside fixtures, such as the sun and the moon, appeared to become completely frozen in orbit for about the length of an entire day (v. 13). But this would only have been the perspective of those caught within the limits of the singularity.
As for the outside world, I'm inclined to believe that time continued to elapse at its usual rate. The earth never lost a moment in its rotation, and the sun continued to follow its usual circuit through the sky. But had we been granted a seat just outside the singularity, at high noon, looking out upon the scene of the battle, all of the events recorded in Joshua 10:11-14 would have occurred, quite literally, in the blink of an eye. We would have witnessed little more than a flash of light, and we'd have missed out on all the particulars of that battle.
And since God possesses this unique ability to manipulate time in order to fulfill his decrees, I believe it's quite possible that while the earth was spinning along at its usual rate, God could certainly have manipulated time in such a way that caused the world to age at an utterly phenomenal rate... the rocks, the land, the sea, the creatures... it's possible that all of them aged rapidly while the earth itself continued on its normal course.
Do take note, however, that while I believe such things are possible, I am not married to any one of these particular views, except in the area of Scripture, where it teaches that there were only six days of creation, or re-creation if you prefer, prior to the creation of Adam.
Joe |
| | | | | Continued discussion of the "Days" of Genesis.... | |
|
| Page 1 of 1 |
| | Permissions of this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
|
Home 
FAQ 
Search 
Register 
Log in 
