Guitar Chat (lessons, gear talk and questions)

Joined : 01 Jan 2007 Posts : 1104

I am so dumb when it comes to theory. I don't understand a thing but I know I play some scales. lol

I just can't seem to grasp HOW they are made... :scratch:

Thanks for the the posts though!
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Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

...and everything has finally clicked in to place. You don't know how much this helps.

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Joined : 01 Jan 2007 Posts : 1104

Thanks for the explanation. That is much clearer to me. I'll try them on my guitar. Smile

_________________
As I breathe anew You are my precious vitality
As I breathe again You are my everlasting source

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Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

A few more questions.

1. What's a diminished chord?

2. What are the modes and what are their significance?

Age : 37 Joined : 02 Jan 2007 Posts : 445

Age : 37 Joined : 02 Jan 2007 Posts : 445

Age : 37 Joined : 02 Jan 2007 Posts : 445

One more post for tonight. Here is some more chord stuff.

Major___R - 3 - 5 ex: G
Minor___R -b3 - 5 ex: Gmi or G-
diminished___R -b3 -b5 ex: Go (pretend "o" is a degree symbol)
augmented___R -#3 -#5 ex G+
Major 7___R - 3 - 5 - 7 ex: Gma7
minor 7___R -b3 - 5 -b7 ex : Gmi7
Dominant 7___R - 3 - 5 -b7 ex : G7
half diminished___R -b3 -b5 -b7 ex : Gmi7(b5)
diminished 7___R -b3 -b5 -bb7 ex : Go7
Augmented 7___R - 3 - #5 - b7 ex G+7
major 6___R - 3 - 5 - 6
minor 6___R -b3 - 5 - 6 (note NOT b6)

Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

Maybe I should clarify my question more...
I think I wanted to know what the meaning of each mode was (Phrygian, Lydian, Aeolian, etc).

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

Yup, thanks guys.

Age : 33 Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 5271

Age : 37 Joined : 02 Jan 2007 Posts : 445

Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

Okay that made more sense, thanks man.

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

RockfortheRock: As for modes ... OK. This will probably be a long post ... but I think it will help you. Let me know man!

There are 7 steps to the major scale, right? You probably already know that the C-major scale is the only major scale with all natural notes (no sharps or flats). So for simplicity's sake, we will use the C-major scale for this example. To make sure we're on the same page, the C-maj scale contains the notes:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Basically a mode is created by using the same interval pattern but a different root. You can use any note in the major scale as a root, and since there are 7 notes, that means 7 modes … get it?

In order to understand modes, you need to see how the different modes in the same key overlap. The diatonic major scale is the simplest mode, and it is known as the Ionian mode. Next is the Dorian mode. The dorian mode is created by using the SECOND INTERVAL of the major scale (Ionian mode) as the root, in essence moving every note in the scale back one space. So the key of C-major is also = to the D dorian scale, as follows:

C-Ionian: C-D-E-F-G-A-B
D-dorian: D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Get it?

So, where the C-ionian scale looks like this:

|-----------------------|
|-----------------------|
|-----------------4-5-|
|---------3-5-7-------|
|-3-5-7---------------|
|-----------------------|

The D-dorian scale looks like this:

|---------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------|
|-------------4-5-7---------------------5-7-|
|------3-5-7---------------------5-7-9------|
|-5-7----------------OR--5-7-8-------------|
|---------------------------------------------|

You see how it’s the same scale but you start and stop at a different place? This creates a different impression and sound to a piece of music. Thus, the step pattern for the dorian mode is as follows:

root – step – half step – step – step – step – half step – step(octave)

Here are the rest of the modes, in order:

Phrygian Mode: starting on the 3rd interval of the major scale
root – half - step – step – step – step – half step – step - step(octave)

phrygian mode one octave diagram
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-x-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

Lydian Mode: starting on the 4th interval of the major scale
root – step – step – step – half step – step – step – half step(octave)

lydian mode one octave diagram
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-o-|-x-|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Mixolydian Mode: starting on the 5th interval of the major scale
root – step – step – half step – step – step – half step – step(octave)

mixolydian mode one octave diagram
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Aeolian Mode: starting on the 6th interval of the major scale. **you will probably recognize this one, it is also known as the diatonic minor scale or simply—the minor scale. It is the scale from which we derive the pentatonic scale, blues scale, and MOST of heavy metal and rock music worldwide.
Root – step – half step – step – step – half step – step – step(octave)

aeolian mode one octave diagram
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-x-|---|-o-|-o-|---|

Locrian Mode: starting on the 7th interval of the major scale. This is the
funny sounding one we talked about earlier and is the only mode of the major scale which yields a diminished chord. Notice in the diagram that a power chord in the locrian mode is a very dissonant power chord.
root – half step – step – step – half step – step – step – step(octave)

locrian mode one octave diagram
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-x-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

Note that I am typing this stuff up pretty quickly and there is a 95% chance that there is a mistake somewhere in this post. So if you’re reading through and something just doesn’t make sense, get back to me and I will either correct my post or explain myself.

In order to understand teh concept of modes a little better, try playing through them in order, like this:

|-C-IONIAN-------------------------D-DORIAN-----------------------E-PHRYGIAN------------------------------
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|---------------4-5-4-----------------------------5-7-5--------------------------------7-9-7---------------------
|--------3-5-7--------7-5-3---------------5-7-9--------9-7-5----------------7-9-10--------10-9-7-------------
|-3-5-7----------------------7-5-3-5-7-8----------------------8-7-5-7-8-10------------------------10-8-7-…--
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-F-LYDIAN-------------------------------------G-MIXOLYDIAN------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------9-10-9-------------------------------------------10-12-10--------------------------
-----------9-10-12---------12-10-9----------------------10-12-14------------14-12-10---------------
-8-10-12-----------------------------12-10-8-10-12-14----------------------------------14-12-10-…-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-A-AEOLIAN---------------------------------------------B-LOCRIAN------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------12-14-12----------------------------------------------14-16-14---------------------------
-------------12-14-15-------------15-14-12-----------------------14-15-17-------------17-15-14---------------
-12-14-15------------------------------------15-14-12-14-15-17-----------------------------------17-15-14-…-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-C-IONIAN-(OCTAVE)------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------------------------|
-------------------------16-17-16-------------------------|
-------------15-17-19-------------19-17-15-------------|
-15-17-19-------------------------------------19-17-15-|
------------------------------------------------------------|

This may seem like a lot to learn right now, but trust me, once you know the major scale in its entirely, the rest is just practice (since you already know all the patterns).

The bestway to learn all the modes for now is probably to learn the major scale all over the fretboard. And the best way to do that is to practice using the various major scale patterns. Learn one at a time, then move to the next, then the next, until you know all 7 of them. Use practice exercises (I tend to like various hopscotch exercises for this sort of thing) to learn how they all fit together. The more you do this, the more it will all become one big shape and then you will be able to visualize modes and arpeggios more and more as time goes on.

If you don’t know the seven major scale patterns, just post here and ask me for them, it should take all of 5 minutes to type them all up and post them. Also if you’re looking for practice exercises to help you with this (seemingly daunting) task, just let me know.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ...

Master of the Axe Joined : 06 Apr 2007 Posts : 510

1. That helped alot. Thanks man.

2. I don't know the seven major scale patterns, haha, it would be nice if I did.

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Sure dude, I'll post them either later on today or tomorrow. Just check back Wink

For now you can try out playing that one octave up n' down exercise I posted. Try it out and let me know how it goes!
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ...

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Ok, there are a number of different ways to lay out these patterns, but probably the best way to do it for a metal player (and the way I like to do it) is to lay them out 3 notes per string.

Same as always - an "x" is a major root and an "o" is one of the 6 other notes in the major scale. Try playing these up and down for beginning purposes, and seriously, don't let yourself get overwhelmed by all this stuff. It seems like a lot, but even after a couple of years of practice it has just gotten easier and more enjoyable with every passing day.

Ok, these are the 7 shapes in order. Notice how they fit over top of each other like puzzle peices. In order to illustrate, I will indicate how far up the neck we have gone udnerneath each diagram.

|---|---|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|
|---|---|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|---|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
N=whichever note you start on

|---|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|---|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
N+2 frets

|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
N+4 frets

|---|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|---|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|---|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|---|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
N+5 frets

|---|---|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|
|---|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
N+7 frets

|---|---|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|
|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|---|---|
N+9 frets

|---|-x-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-x-|---|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|-x-|---|-o-|---|---|
N+11 frets

And then N+12 frets would be the same pattern as the first one, but 12 frets up (since 12 frets are an octave).

Kapish???

For starters I'd recommend, like I said, start with the first pattern and learn that one well. Then move to the next, and so on and so forth. Here are some practice exercises to get you moving. But there are endless possibilities, so feel free to make up your own and post them here.

Pick a key and play it up and down:

for example, in the key of G:

First, memorize the shape by playing it up and down a few times:
|------------------------------------5-7-8-7-5--------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------5-7-8-------------8-7-5-------------------------------|
|----------------------4-5-7---------------------------7-5-4------------------------|
|---------------4-5-7-----------------------------------------7-5-4-----------------|
|--------3-5-7--------------------------------------------------------7-5-3---------|
|-3-5-7-----------------------------------------------------------------------7-5-3-|

Then try doing some string exercises:

I call this “two steps forward, one step back” Smile

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------5-7-8-|
|------------------------------------------------------------5-7-8--------5-7-8--------|
|--------------------------------------4-5-7--------4-5-7---------4-5-7---------------|
|---------------4-5-7---------4-5-7---------4-5-7-------------------------------------|
|--------3-5-7--------3-5-7------------------------------------------------------------|
|-3-5-7---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
& don’t forget to go back down.

As well as string skipping:
|---------------------------------------------------5-7-8---------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------|
|----------------------4-5-7----------------4-5-7-----------------------------------------|
|--------4-5-7---------------4-5-7-------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------3-5-7--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-3-5-7----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
& back down in reverse

Double string skipping for a little more challenge:
|------------------------------------5-7-8------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------5-7-8--------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------4-5-7----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------4-5-7-------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------3-5-7---------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-3-5-7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
& back down

Now some more tricky note exercises:

Again, two steps forward, one step back, but do it with individual notes this time:
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5---5-7-5-7-8-|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------5---5-7-5-7-8-7-8---8-------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------4---4-5-4-5-7-5-7---7-----------------------------------|
|------------------------------------4---4-5-4-5-7-5-7---7---------------------------------------------------------|
|--------------3---3-5-3-5-7-5-7---7-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-3-5-7-5-7---7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
& reverse it back down

Lastly, instead of string skipping, try NOTE skipping
|---------------------------------------------------------------------5---7-5-8-7-------------------|
|------------------------------------------------------5---7-5-8-7---8------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------4---5-4-7-5---7--------------------------------------------|
|------------------------4---5-4-7-5---7----------------------------------------------------------|
|---------3---5-3-7-5---7------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-3-7-5---7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
and back down

Oh, and for the record, I flat out STOLE these exercises from Mr. Jon Hooper back in the days of the old CMR thread. So he gets the credit for all this stuff!

Practice these 6 exercises for 10-20 minutes per day (on top of the regular practicing you do) … and you’ll be able to murder this scale pattern within no time! Then move on to the next one, but remember to STAY IN KEY! So, if you’re playing in the key of G major, and you’re playing the 2nd pattern, don’t forget to start on the 5th fret, since this is where that pattern belongs in that key. The next one starts on the 7th fret and so on. It will take some time, so like I said, be patient and never stop having fun while doing this. Frustration is the surest enemy of learning.

If you have any questions, feel free to post here, as usual. And R4tR: keep me posted on your practicing man! Let me know how you're doing.
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ...

Age : 22 Joined : 04 Jun 2007 Posts : 1477

Tue Jul 10, 2007

Hey RockfortheRock: since you’re into arpeggios and sweep picking, here’s an exercise that will get you more acquainted with the major scale. This is a major chord progression in the key of C that is entirely composed of arpeggios. Notice how the distance between the root note of all the chords here is the same pattern as a regular major scale. Notice how each arpeggio played here overlaps the modes in the key of C that I posted above. Also notice the difference in sound between a minor chord and a major chord. I have also indicated the name of the chord you are playing above the arpeggio itself. Remember that just a note name indicates a major chord, and a small “m” means it’s a minor chord.

|-C------------Dm-----------Em-------------F--------------------G---------------------Am--------------------|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------5-------------7--------------9-----------------10--------------------12--------------------14--------|
|-------5---5--------7---7----------9---9-----------10-----10------------12-----12------------14-----14-----|
|-3-7--------7-5-8--------8-7-10--------10-8-12------------12-10-14------------14-12-15-------------15-|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

|-B*---------------------C--------------------B*------------------Am------------------G----------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------16-------------------17-------------------16-------------------14-------------------12---------|
|----------15-----15------------17----17------------15----15------------14----14------------12-----12-----|
|-14-17-------------17-15-19-----------19-14-17-----------17-12-15-----------15-10-14-------------14-|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

|-F--------------------Em-------------Dm----------C-------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------10-----------------9--------------6-------------5-----------------------------------------|
|--------10-----10-----------9---9---------6----6--------5---5---------------------------------------|
|-8-12------------12-7-10--------10-5-8--------8-3-7--------7-3-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

**And be sure to finish it all off by making your best metal face and slamming a C-major chord as hard as you can!!!
_________________
... a chill rises from the soil ...
... and contaminates the air ...
... suddenly ...
... life has new meaning ...