Anyone who thinks this is a christian music only problem isn't paying attention. I don't understand this attitude of music should be free that so many have.

Oh heck no. It's a problem overall. Bigger labels like SPV, Metal Blade, Century Media are feeling the effects as well. I think SPV just claimed bankruptcy, or barkruptcy protection or something like that.

They did. And look at stores, how many have maybe two racks of cd's when they used to have 10? People keep saying the industry needs to adjust but really, how do you stop internet theft?

Most of the indipendent CD stores have closed is my area, one just had a "stay in business sale", they're bailin' water!

We have one major used cd store chain here in New England.....Bull Moose Music. They seem to be thriving....used cds, dvds, vinyl, video games. It's the go-to place for all your media needs. If the crunch is hitting the music world, it's certainly not felt here.

We had a place called Cd Exchange....probably not the same one though....they went out of business a while ago.

There is change brewing in the music industry, pure and simple. It just might not be the sort of "good" change some folks are so keen on seeing happen.


I don't know how Bombworks/retroactive's OTHER releases are selling, but.....isn't there the possibility that there is just an overestimation on exactly how big the REAL demand for some of the older "name bands" actually is? I mean, most of us remember the whole "Beyond the Mountain" fiasco, right? The internet is CERTAINLY capable of distorting what the REAL demand for this sort of stuff really is, no doubt.....



how much has "try before you buy" actually HURT some of the sales, because folks flat out....didn't like........the percieved change in the band's style? While I have yet to hear ANY of the new SA, the info I've gotten from people who HAVE basically tells me that it's more MSW than the classic SA sound......which is NOT what I was looking for from it, and thusly, I haven't bought it.....and am not likely to WITHOUT "previewing" it in full....how many folks HAVE heard it, and have been put off by the fact that "this isn't the seventh Angel" I knew and wanted to hear again"? How much are the labels DEPENDING upon people buying something and simply.....not liking it......and essentially throwing their money away?



There are a LOT of factors that can play into the equation , ESPECIALLY with long standing or reforming bands, and while I understand the the downloading does have a deep impact, sometimes it's also the easiest scapegoat target........

Since I shall use it a lot......BFB means Big Freaking Bingo.


Points:


1. Ult said:

Quote:

Hmmmm, seems Steve is not the only one suggesting that illegal downloading is killing smaller bands and labels. This email was sent out to all the bands on Bombworks and Retroactive this past weekend. Does this not sound similar to what Steve Rowe said? Quote: Hi Guys, Here is some info on stopping rampant illegal download sites. As a label this illegal downloading has literally cost us thousands of sales. Seventh Angel has sold poorly for us - a big name release! Yet, one of 20 free downloads sites has a counter that said the album had been downloaded 7500 times. As a label, we need your help in clamping down on these sites. It is extremely important for us to hammer down on illegal downloads early in the life of a release when the demand is highest. Bombworks and Retroactive cannot do this alone - we need your help and help from your fans to assist in policing this. Most file hosting companys "only" require the following information from you, emailed to their abuse department. ex. Rapidshare abuse@rapidshare.com We are the copyright owners of this recording ARTIST: SEVENTH ANGEL ALBUM: THE DUST OF YEARS LABEL: BOMBWORKS/RETROACTIVE RECORDS linked from several illegal MP3 sharing sites. We kindly ask you to remove the files from your server. Thank you. LOCATION OF FILE: FILENAME: Some require you mention where it was linked from: LINKED FROM: NAME: COMPANY; ADDRESS: PHONE: Thanks for anything you can do to help...... Matt So Seventh Angels is selling poorly, yet the album has been downloaded illegally 7,500 times. Hmmmm...perhaps Steve Rowe isn't so off base as some proposed?

That's a BFB.




2. Candlemass said:

Quote:

I don't think he was off base at all, I just didn't care for the sexual sin analogy.

That would also be a BFB.




3. Ult said:

Quote:

However, the overall point he was trying to make is valid and similar to what Matt is saying here. How sad that a band like Seventh Angel wouldn't even be able to sell through their first 1,000 CDs pressed, yet there are 7,500 digital downloads on one illegal site alone. Honestly, I've spoken to Matt about this recently. If this isn't curbed quickly, it will force labels like Retroactive and Bombworks to either shut down, or at least scale back releases quite a bit.

Another BFB.




4. Alldat said:

Quote:

But, with a lot of teens with limited budgets, they are downloading because it is free and will never delete something or buy it. They think that because it is offered free that it is okay. No one likes the RIAA, but without major lawsuits to shut down illegal download sites AND continued major penalties for people who get caught uploading/downloading music they do not own, you will NEVER see the end of the freebies as long as artists keep recording.

Oh look...... .....another BFB.




5. Ult said:

Quote:

angelofdarkness wrote: Don't get me wrong, I HATE illegal downloading. The thing is, to say that since 7500 people illegally downloaded the Seventh Angel album, that it equates to 7500 lost cd sales....well, that just doesn't add up. Just because 7500 people downloaded it, doesn't mean that 7500 would have actually bought it. The only reason people downloaded it, is because it's free. If that option wasn't there in the first place, you may have had an extra few hundred sales. Most people are just downloading it to try it out. I'm sure that a lot of people are doing it in the way that you and I would go to a used cd store and listen to a used cd to see if it's to our liking. That doesn't make it right, but to say that everyone who downloads an album is taking a sale away from the artist is a bit off. No where did Matt say that "7500 would have actually bought it". He did have a good point that "one of several sites offering the album for free download has had 7500 downloads of the new Seventh Angel". The point is, even if that means 50 - 1000 albums are not sold due to those 7,500 illegal downloads just on that one site, that is still quite a bit of money lost, especially when you consider that the first pressing of 1,000 copies hasn't even sold out yet. That doesn't even take into consideration the money lost for all the other sites illegally giving the album away. In other words, the label and band isn't able to recover it's expenses, which means the label won't re-invest in the band, the band will be in debt to the label and the label may not be able to sign other bands as a result of revenue lost. It's a no win situation no matter how many people claim they just downloaded it to "check it out."

Wow....... ......BFBs seem to come in packs.




6. Black Rider said:

Quote:

I don't understand this attitude of music should be free that so many have.

I do.

Free music = good!!

Free music = fun!!

Free music = the new American outlook toward music!!

Free music = the American way!!


Oh.....BTW.....your statement, that's a BFB, too.




7. Ult said:

Quote:

Bigger labels like SPV, Metal Blade, Century Media are feeling the effects as well. I think SPV just claimed bankruptcy, or barkruptcy protection or something like that.

QPR??

FZW??

RAR??

No..........

That would be a BFB.




8. Black Rider said:

Quote:

They did. And look at stores, how many have maybe two racks of cd's when they used to have 10? People keep saying the industry needs to adjust but really, how do you stop internet theft?

You do not stop internet theft.

Good freaking luck doing that.

Before I forget......BFB.




9. Candlemass said:

Quote:

Most of the indipendent CD stores have closed is my area

BFB.

They can just join the club.

Stores are going out of business elsewhere, too.

And as Black Rider said......other stores have cut down CD stock immensely. I've seen both here in La--La--Land.




10. Angelofdarkness said:

Quote:

If the crunch is hitting the music world.....

If?? If?? What cave do you live in?? I live in a castle but the connections to the music world are still rather good. Man.....it's hurting......big time.

Wake up and smell the burning CDs.




11. Angelofdarkness said:

Quote:

We had a place called Cd Exchange....probably not the same one though....they went out of business a while ago.

Go figure.




12. As a postscript to end this.....I want you to know i'm no friend of big record companies or the people who run them, i'm no friend of radio, and i'm no friend of the *music industry* in general......but CDs are passing......they're going the way of vinyl about 25 years ago......and soon i'll be doing all of my CD $$buying$$ online......instead of the 90% or 95% I do now.




13. I love Islam.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

I think GW should be medicated....or up the dosage!

I'm already medicated.


Just up the dosage.


Cosmic.

I completely and uterly agree with exo. I frequently do full "preview" listens to albums off the web, yet I don't think I have ever bought as many CD's as I do now (namely those that I previewed and thought were cool).

What i _don't_ do is buy duds anymore. I used to do that when I was younger and bought whatever happened to appear in my local christian bookshop out of a misguided idea that I was doing the right thing and that I would eventually come to like the album after a few listens.

Now I listen to loads of things and I spread my purchases across a much wider range of styles etc. But when I commit my money, I make every single purchase count now.

I seriously, SERIOUSLY think that the lack of sales with these longstanding or reforming bands is that people just ....don't like.....the direction they've gone for the most part, and thus, the demand for NEW material is exxagerated greatly by the nostalgia factor.

when folks find out that the NEW material isn't really that close to the OLD material, there's a sense of letdown, and once word gets around......the demand for the new product drops off dramatically. I mean, it sure SEEMS like theres actually an air of dissappointment amongst a lot of fans of SA that this isnt' closer in style to the older stuff. I've heard multiple people say that while it's very good, high quality material, it could have just as easily been titled as a MSW disc.....and they say it with an air of resignation, because it's not the SA they remember being such a fan of.


You couple that with the blinding viral speed at which words spreads amongst fans on the internet these days, and you can have a release that never really stood a chance.....and a whole lot of people downloading it to find out if the rumors they are hearing about the material are actually true.


It's just NOT a stone cold lead pipe lock that the illegal downloading is actually the culprit...but BOY does it make for an easy scapegoat when a "name band" that's changed their sound doesnt' sell like the labels think they should............

I've "previewed" music before myself. Mainly because my limited budget does not allow me to just buy a CD "sound unlistened" and cross my fingers and hope that I like it.

I'll give you an example of what happens with me.

I downloaded some songs from Queensryche's albums because I'd heard good things about them. I burned them to a disc and marinated in them for awhile. You know what happened next? I bought "Rage for Order" on tape, then CD, then the re-released CD. I bought "Operation: Mindcrime" on tape, then on CD. THEN bought "The Warning" "Queensryche" "Empire" (twice) and "Promised Land".

So yeah... downloading music caused me to buy MORE music at stores.

Weird huh?

All I can say is I am glad that I downloaded the new Mortification album instead of buying it blind or based on the (now dead) hope that they would produce a good album.  I got through it and then deleted it, saved my money and my ears!