Ephesians and Predestination

Hawk of May · Number of posts: 443 Registration date: 2007-05-30

I've been studying Ephesians lately with friends. We haven't gotten out of the first two or three chapters as some just do not want to believe that God has predestined the saints.

They are stuck particularly on these three passages:

[size=12][size=12]
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:3-14
[/size][/size]

[size=12][size=12]
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10
[/size][/size]

[size=12][size=12]
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

Ephesians 3:8-12
[/size][/size]

I don't know if these few people I know (about three, maybe four of them) have a problem with comprehension or they have a problem with they way God works because they actually do understand. Either way, is it difficult to understand in any way? Thoughts?

KingsRite · Number of posts: 1543 Age: 39 Registration date: 2008-07-23

Two trains of thought.

Predestination involves God choosing whom he wants to be saved.

The other belief is he predestined the "way of salvation".

You start reflecting on this to much and your head will explode.

How do you separate Gods omnipotence, omnipresence, and all knowing from free moral agency?

One thing to keep in mind. Gods character isn't defined or limited by our ability to understand a concept.

Thats what gets alot of people in trouble. They believe if they can't grasp a biblical concept in their mind or soulish realm, then it must not be true or that God is somehow deceiving and ultimitely unjust.

That would be our definitions of those concepts by the way, not Gods.

Why would the creator of all things limit himself to our finite minds or run "truth" by us to see if it is exceptable?

KingsRite

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: Ephesians and Predestination Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:33 pm

However one wants to interpret it...................... scratch

I have no problem with predestination.

HE will do what HE wills to do.

Quote:

You start reflecting on this to much and your head will explode.

Bingo.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Guest

Just explain both the Calvinist & Arminian understanding of predestination and move on, but don't allow the people you're teaching to get off scott free and completely deny it. I know some Pentecostals who deny predestination altogether, whether based on God's sovereign choice or upon his foreknowledge of human decisions, and that is certainly not Biblical. To say that one doesn't believe in predestination at all is to deny Scripture. Predestination is explicitly taught in Scripture. It's the nature of it that befuddles us as fallen humans. No one fully understands exactly how it works, but there are plenty of verses that definitely teach it. In fact, to prevent unnecessary argument in mixed company, that's how I would explain it.

Hawk of May · Number of posts: 443 Registration date: 2007-05-30

Scourge, I see what you're saying. No one gets off "scott free" in my Bible studies. I mean, the Scripture has them pinned down. No one is denying it but some just want to combat against it and they become frustrated as they realize that they cannot skirt the issue.

But then again, no one in my group that has a problem with predestination can even verbalize what their issues are. It truly is amazing that some people think they can figure God out, you know?

I'm in full agreement with what everyone has written so far. In fact, I say that to try and come down decisively on one side or the other between God's omniscience/omnipotence and free will is to miss the point that both are true and that it is a mystery that they are both true at the same time.

Good discussion so far.

Any other thoughts? Heresies?

Metalhead10 · Number of posts: 78 Age: 18 Registration date: 2008-07-23

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

Hawk of May · Number of posts: 443 Registration date: 2007-05-30

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

HERESY! Just kidding. Seriously though, yeah, crazy is a good way to say it.

Guest

God is God.

Follower of Jesus · Number of posts: 3334 Age: 36 Registration date: 2007-04-07

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

It is my opinion that Eph. 1:3 rules out this line of thinking. He "chose us", not "He foreknew we would choose Him". Just my thought...and yes, I'm a Calvinist. Cool

Guest

Imo, the futre, past and present are all Present for God.

He already see's you now as you were, as you are, and as you will be.

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10208 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

Predestination is real. Twisted Evil

Free will is real. Twisted Evil

That is all. Twisted Evil

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007

Guest

Follower of Jesus wrote:

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

It is my opinion that Eph. 1:3 rules out this line of thinking. He "chose us", not "He foreknew we would choose Him". Just my thought...and yes, I'm a Calvinist. Cool

Personally, I agree and have serious problems with the 'foreknowledge of human choice' part for the same reasons that you cite. There really aren't any passages that explicitly paint that picture. Don't forget that Classical Arminianism teaches prevenient grace, which is believed to awaken the Spiritually-dead individual and enables them to choose Christ. This is an important feature of Arminianism that gets ignored far too often by Calvinists, and actually makes it more orthodox and Evangelical. Also, Classical Arminianism teaches that predestination is only corporate (based upon their interpretation of Romans 8:29) and that individual decisions are conditional, and not irrevocable. I'm just trying to represent the Arminian view fairly, although I strongly disagree with it. We Calvinists differ in believing that God can, and does, override fallen free will, turning hearts and minds toward himself. Forget semi-Pelagianism, which downplays human depravity completely and teaches that we're merely damaged by the Fall rather than left incapacitated by it. As such, it is a different, seemingly-heretical beast altogether.

GODSWIZARD · Subject: Re: Ephesians and Predestination Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:06 pm

TallT said:

Quote:

Predestination is real. Twisted Evil

Free will is real. Twisted Evil

That is all. Twisted Evil

Bingo.

Both are real and coexist simultaneously. That they do--and are able to somehow *work* together at the same time--is one of the deep, deep mysteries of reality. Shocked

Gets back to if you think about it too much and try to explain it:

Quote:

You start reflecting on this to much and your head will explode.

_________________
"The 'farce' is strong with Sith Lord Obama-Wan." words of Scourge.

"Uh....You can believe me....Uh....because I never lie, and....Uh....Uh....I am always right." words of Sith Lord Obama-Wan.

Daddy likes it all, the DraíodóirDé likes it all

Metalhead10 · Number of posts: 78 Age: 18 Registration date: 2008-07-23

Follower of Jesus wrote:

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

It is my opinion that Eph. 1:3 rules out this line of thinking. He "chose us", not "He foreknew we would choose Him". Just my thought...and yes, I'm a Calvinist. Cool

either way there is no real point in arguing because we're all going to heaven right?

**Tall Tyrion** · Number of posts: 10208 Age: 41 Registration date: 2007-01-28

GODSWIZARD wrote:

Both are real and coexist simultaneously. That they do--and are able to somehow *work* together at the same time--is one of the deep, deep mysteries of reality. Shocked

Gets back to if you think about it too much and try to explain it:

Quote:

You start reflecting on this to much and your head will explode.

Yep. No surprise to me that we cannot understand the nature of YHWH. Evil or Very Mad

A god I can explain thoroughly is not a god worth worshipping, IMO. Such a god can't do anything for me. Evil or Very Mad

_________________
“If you make less than $250,000 your taxes will not go up. Not one dime.” BH Obama

''Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now,'' Candidate Obama in 2007

Follower of Jesus · Number of posts: 3334 Age: 36 Registration date: 2007-04-07

Metalhead10 wrote:

Follower of Jesus wrote:

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

It is my opinion that Eph. 1:3 rules out this line of thinking. He "chose us", not "He foreknew we would choose Him". Just my thought...and yes, I'm a Calvinist. Cool

either way there is no real point in arguing because we're all going to heaven right?

Metalhead - I'd agree with you, except that this predestination thing is a major stumbling block to some people. I've known people that walked away from Christ because they couldn't accept it. So long as we stay respectful, kind and speak in love, there's no need to "argue" about it at all. But discussion of this very important truth is essential.

Guest

Follower of Jesus wrote:

I'd agree with you, except that this predestination thing is a major stumbling block to some people. I've known people that walked away from Christ because they couldn't accept it. So long as we stay respectful, kind and speak in love, there's no need to "argue" about it at all. But discussion of this very important truth is essential.

Great post FOJ!

Hawk of May · Number of posts: 443 Registration date: 2007-05-30

scourge39 wrote:

Follower of Jesus wrote:

I'd agree with you, except that this predestination thing is a major stumbling block to some people. I've known people that walked away from Christ because they couldn't accept it. So long as we stay respectful, kind and speak in love, there's no need to "argue" about it at all. But discussion of this very important truth is essential.

Great post FOJ!

I second that thought and sentiment. Many people miss that, you know? Some are so afraid of dialogue because of being burned before or fear of confrontation or apathy toward exercising brain power on something.

Many people have to combat one or more of those things in order to hold down discussions and it's worth it. More so when we're talking about God.

Metalhead10 · Number of posts: 78 Age: 18 Registration date: 2008-07-23

Follower of Jesus wrote:

Metalhead10 wrote:

Follower of Jesus wrote:

Metalhead10 wrote:

yeah basicly he knows what is going to happen, but you're still the one that makes the decision. He basicly just already knew what decision you would make because he is there now and here now. Which is crazy enough in itself.

It is my opinion that Eph. 1:3 rules out this line of thinking. He "chose us", not "He foreknew we would choose Him". Just my thought...and yes, I'm a Calvinist. Cool

either way there is no real point in arguing because we're all going to heaven right?

Metalhead - I'd agree with you, except that this predestination thing is a major stumbling block to some people. I've known people that walked away from Christ because they couldn't accept it. So long as we stay respectful, kind and speak in love, there's no need to "argue" about it at all. But discussion of this very important truth is essential.

ok I get what you're saying

Metalhead10 · Number of posts: 78 Age: 18 Registration date: 2008-07-23

Hawk of May wrote:

I second that thought and sentiment. Many people miss that, you know? Some are so afraid of dialogue because of being burned before or fear of confrontation or apathy toward exercising brain power on something.

Many people have to combat one or more of those things in order to hold down discussions and it's worth it. More so when we're talking about God.

and no I am not afraid of getting into a discussion about "religious" stuff. That would be most of my friends at my school. I swear the second I say something that has anything to do with god they all go hid in a dark corner somewhere.

and god forbid I make the slight anotation stating that there is a difference between christianity and mormonism scratch