Your post is based on suppositions that are not true or just plain don't make any sense. What exactly is the point of this whole thread? Every time you make a new post it seems that you are saying that in order to be good Christians, we must first be good Jews. The Bible says otherwise. Seriously, read the New Testament. You will find in Acts 15 and in Galations that the Church has already dealt with this issue.

Then read how Jesus came into the world (Christmas). Read how he died for our sins and rose from the dead (Easter). At the end of your post you state you feel modern Christianity is celebrating a substitute. You are the one asking Christians to celebrate a substitute. Why celebrate old holidays that at best point to a coming Messiah when we could celebrate the actual coming of the Messiah? It is Jesus who saves us, not some old ceremonies in the Old Testament. Why would we not celebrate Jesus Christ Himself?

First I want to say thank you, nonsarcastically, for asking some legit questions.

intrigued1 wrote:

Your post is based on suppositions that are not true or just plain don't make any sense. What exactly is the point of this whole thread?

Well, from my perspective it makes perfect sense. But, I just gave ya'll a quick outline. Read the link at the top of my last post. It won't make sense unless you look into it. The point of this thread is to give everyone some MEAT on the bones of their faith. Since learning these things, I have more passion about my faith and can back it up much better to anyone who can come at me with hard questions. Even if you do no celebrate them, at least you can explain them to inquiring minds. All celebrating them does is complete the joy of what you've studied, and is a great witness for news. The point of this thread is NOT to convince you to start following these holidays, but to make you just merely think for yourself.

intrigued1 wrote:

Every time you make a new post it seems that you are saying that in order to be good Christians, we must first be good Jews. The Bible says otherwise. Seriously, read the New Testament. You will find in Acts 15 and in Galations that the Church has already dealt with this issue.

Let's look at Acts 15---

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015&version=NIV

This is dealing with the Judaizers. I believe Judaizing is wrong. What IS Judaising? Telling people that they must do SOMETHING to complete the work of Salvation. In this verse, it was circumcision. We, as gentiles, do not have to become circumscribed to become saved. Then why still get circumscribed? Well, because ....you actually don't have a choice, personally. LOL But, in theory, you want be clean and also follow the way of the Jew because it has significance and sets you apart from the world (as it was meant to in the past). But it is no longer a requirement. Just like the holidays I've been talking about the entire time (for us Gentiles). BUT, since we are grafted in, and we have a choice (Christmas or Sukkot, Passover or Easter, or anything else! E.g. Resurrection Sunday). I am simply making a case to celebrate something that is already documented for us to practice, has more meaning, etc etc. You can do with it what you want, again, like we ALL have said, we have that freedom to decide.

Paul was all things to all men, so we know he celebrated the holidays, ate kosher, and probably unkosher at times, and probably couldn't celebrate all the Sabbaths. But he understood it deeply and I bet when he could, gladly would celebrate it over anything else (I think it's fair to conclude this).

No, I don't think it makes you a better Christian to celebrate these holidays. Just a more informed and, to some, more blessed because now they know.

intrigued1 wrote:

Then read how Jesus came into the world (Christmas). Read how he died for our sins and rose from the dead (Easter). At the end of your post you state you feel modern Christianity is celebrating a substitute. You are the one asking Christians to celebrate a substitute. Why celebrate old holidays that at best point to a coming Messiah when we could celebrate the actual coming of the Messiah? It is Jesus who saves us, not some old ceremonies in the Old Testament. Why would we not celebrate Jesus Christ Himself?

Because, simply stating, this is wrong. We can agree to disagree who is right or not. But all I have to say is, which holiday came first? I believe Jesus fulfilled these Holidays. He IS all that these holidays were meant to point to. Is this a lie? If no, then why change the holiday? That's my point exactly.

Well, it would have been weird for Jesus to celebrate Christmas and Easter. People didn't understand what he'd come for until after he died so Christmas would have just been a birthday and, well, Easter didn't happen until after he died.
By stating the intrigued is wrong you show your arrogance. You tell us we aren't required to celebrate the OT holidays then tell him he is wrong in wanting to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Just like we no longer have to obey the dietary restrictions, sacrifices and other societal laws, the fulfillment of them means they are done. Can we learn from them? It's already been stated we can. The way you are arguing, we should still sacrifice animals. I mean, that did come first. Did Jesus fulfill them? Yes. So why change them? See my point?

That sure is some website you are referencing. I feel very confident in saying that if you have gotten involved with those people, you are a member of a cult. Run away from those people as quickly as you can. They will do nothing but bring harm to the cause of Christ and lead you to a false faith.

BR, Angel, Echo, others responding on this thread: have you looked at the website he is referencing? This is at best an ultra-fringe group, Petrafan is in need of a lot of prayer.

Hmm, yeah. Here's a quote:


Mainstream Christianity insists He preached the Gospel and the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection for our sins. But the Scriptures, read in context, reveal He did NOT preach those things while He was alive; rather, He preached about the Kingdom of God!



Really? So his teaching in John 14 about believing in Him so we can live? That's not the Gospel? Coming to the Father through Jesus? Asking in His name? That's just a quick grab that comes to mind. He spent time instructing how to live in this life, the kingdom and how those things would come about.

Again, I never said any of you were wrong for celebrating Christmas or Easter. Heck, my family still celebrates it and I attend! I tell them about real biblical holidays, but I never judge them for not celebrating them. As you all have clearly stated, what right would I have to do so? I think the preconceived notions about what you think I am implying needs to be checked. I am merely saying that you could be a little bit more enlightened. That's it, really.

Another thing I should bring up. A lot of Christians believe Zechariah 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2014&version=NIV) is a prophecy regarding the end times. If so, does this mean we will be celebrating Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)? Eeeey?

Black Rider wrote:

Well, it would have been weird for Jesus to celebrate Christmas and Easter. People didn't understand what he'd come for until after he died so Christmas would have just been a birthday and, well, Easter didn't happen until after he died. By stating the intrigued is wrong you show your arrogance. You tell us we aren't required to celebrate the OT holidays then tell him he is wrong in wanting to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Just like we no longer have to obey the dietary restrictions, sacrifices and other societal laws, the fulfillment of them means they are done. Can we learn from them? It's already been stated we can. The way you are arguing, we should still sacrifice animals. I mean, that did come first. Did Jesus fulfill them? Yes. So why change them? See my point?

The torah (which means instruction) is now on our hearts. We do it BECAUSE we have a helper, the Holy Spirit, because are saved, not to be saved. Is this not true?

So yes, even I don't agree with everything on that site, and I didn't proof read it. But are we to say the law has been abolished? Of course not! Like I said, it's on our hearts. It just changed forms. I'm not implying what you SHOULD do as a Christian. That's between you and God, and what the Lord convicts you from reading the word. I'm just saying PLEASE, do not make such a statement. Because that may, to some, mean it's anything goes gospel.

If there really are rewards in heaven for what we do here on earth, and we will be judged for it, do you not think doing what you know is right that you will be rewarded for it...even if others think you are being legalistic (when you know yourself you are not)? Furthermore, am I wrong for wanting to pursue what first century believers pursued, as it was a righteous thing to do?

P.S. I really don't see what we are agruing about here. It just sounds like we are agreeing to disagree on that I think it's a good idea to celebrate biblical holidays of old and you don't. Big whoop.

Tall Tyrion wrote:

PetraFan007 wrote: I think the preconceived notions about what you think I am implying needs to be checked. I think you need to take a hard look at that website if that is where you are getting your materials from. You might not be intending to be a Judaizer and an a legalist, but they most certainly are, so it's not wonder that some of the statements that you have gleaned from them still strongly smack of this. Here's a quote from the website: Quote: We created this page mainly to counter the Christian claims that, in order to "be saved" one has to do nothing besides "believe in Jesus." While this is true to a certain extent because Yeshua was the Final SIN Sacrifice, there is more to "having a personal relationship with God" - a whole new world, as a matter of fact! Yeshua (YHWH-Come-in-the-Flesh) even said He did not come to replace His Father or to abolish His Father's Divine Instructions (Torah - without which mankind would have no blueprint for moral, holy living!). Everyone was Torah observant for approximately one hundred years AFTER His death, when Catholicism kicked in to detract from Yeshua's actual teachings.... And think about this: If you abolish Torah, you have to abolish the Ten Commandments right along with it. You can't pick and choose what parts of Torah are still valid - especially since YHWH gave us several "forever" commands above and beyond "the Ten Commandments"! But yet, Christianity - borne out of Catholicism and NOT the original teachings of Christ - insists that Jesus came to do away with "the law" and they've decided the "forever" commands don't pertain to them. That is the very definition of Judaizing... "Yeah, it's nice that you're saved and all, but you've still gotta follow Torah..."

Except you've insinuated that if we don't follow the OT holidays we aren't quite following Jesus as well as we might and that celebrating Christmas and Easter are kind of useless and then you bring in a site that is all about following OT laws. But I think we are at the end of this road.

Yeah. Aren't we ever. lol

If that's the case...then what is the world to think of us and our witness? When living as close to BIBLICAL truth as possible (sifting through the cultural and rabbinic stuff) is not the standard?. How do you expect them to take us seriously? What is our standard? Anything goes because we are free in Christ? Surely there must be some absolute truth in how we should live? What if I said baptizing is cultural? So we should no longer baptize because they did it back then and we don't have to today because "we're free"? There has to be a line in the sand somewhere. This is why the church is so liberal and we're such a joke today. Because no one can even agree to disagree, in love, nevermind agree.

exo wrote:

Black Rider wrote: Except you've insinuated that if we don't follow the OT holidays we aren't quite following Jesus as well as we might and that celebrating Christmas and Easter are kind of useless and then you bring in a site that is all about following OT laws. But I think we are at the end of this road. this is EXACTLY what I've been saying the whole darn time. there is an underlying thought process here that is deeply and grossly flawed. The language used, the phrases used in communication.....they all point to the underlying thought process being that unless you follow the Messianic tradition, you simply are not the Christian you should be....that unless you follow Jewish tradition as a Christian, you are not "Christian" in the fullest sense. The claims that the Messianic tradition is the "biblical way" to do things, for gentiles, is quite simply....false. The mere fact that something is recorded in the Bible does not make it "the Biblical way" to do things. Can it be a recording of a cultural tradition? Quite easily........but the whole implication of the phrase "the Biblical way" implies a firm set of directives and instructions, and that the failure to follow these precepts makes other traditions "UN-biblical". The ultimate logical outcome of the process and arguement is that unless one follows the Messianic traditions, one does not have the requisite fullness to their understanding of Christ, and therefore their own salvation.....that in essence, one is not truly following Christ. At the heart of it, this arguement makes following of the Messianic tradition a pre-requisite for salvation. The dogged insistence that the Messianic tradition is "the Biblical way" and that those who don't follow it are somehow lesser Christians because of it really and truly ammounts to Judaizing. Not to mention, there's just a wee bit of vanity and pride mixed up in it...... Perhaps I'm just getting hung up in semantics here.....but with the rest of the language used, arguements espoused, and the other statements made over the course of the last 3 pages, it's almost as if PF doesnt' comprehend the arguements his own words are making. I know that a large portion of the rest of us can see it quite clearly. Now, if someone wishes to follow a Messianic tradition, my hat goes off to them, and Im happy for them. I certainly don't see anything wrong with following that path....but it's no more or less Biblically correct than the path most of the rest of Christianity has followed for near 2000 years. HOWEVER: I and many others have no call towards being Messianics. And I absolutely MUST utterly reject the notion that NOT following Messianic traditions somehow results in a less full or less knowledgeable status of faith, or that NOT following them affects ones witness, or any other such nonsense.

Quote:

I'm prepared to find out a lot of things I've been wrong about.

Why wait until the millenial reign?? You're in the wrong on this issue now...

Quote:

Including anything I may have been taught at my Messianic congregation (For instance, I think they should spend more time witnessing to non-Jews so they can learn the roots of their faith, live that way, and then make the Jews jeaslous, etc).

The essense and epitome of Judaizing. ^

Quote:

Quote: now, As I've said.....for those who feel the pull to walk as a Messianic.....more power to them. But it doesn't negate the full legitimacy of the NON Messianic Jewish path of the rest of Christendom, either.

Quote:

There's something about that statement that almost makes the messianic walk seem insignificant.

No one can seem to be kind enough or encouraging/understanding enough to you as to your desire to adhere to that path, so I'm going to assume you're deaf or something. YOU have to decide it's significance for yourself and others get/have the freedom to do the same. Nothing about this is unclear to anyone but you.

Ultimately, think about the starter and title of this thread and how the main thought offered continually reflects nothing but assessing non-Messianic holidays as lesser/non-biblical and it doesn't take a mathematical or literary genius to figure out why the response is what it is.

I think you are ruining it for people who may have had some interest or curiousity and are at the very least an example of hideous black-and-white thinking on a matter that the NT has already adressed quite clearly.

It does not speak of an anything goes kind of faith at all but of liberty of one's own conscience re: these traditions AND unity in Christ. Anything else removes the ability of Gentiles to feel fully entered into the Body and if you have a problem with this, then you have a problem with your own entrance as well as the entrance of many others around the world. God being God and all, His will trumps yours. The end!!

You seem to be having major trouble accepting that, others in the thread do not have the same trouble.

_________________
only symbols can be twisted ,burned,spat on etc.NOTHING truly Holy can be desecrated..... - Sabbath Steve

All the Bible study tends to be head knowledge until life experiences drive that knowledge the 12-18 inches to our hearts. aldat